Three generations of link-system

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  • #8939
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
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    Hi all Link-system gurus. I have a question to which I hope you can help me find an answer to.

    Consider a NL-system wiht a few newer Beosounds connected to a Masterlink network (through NL/ML converter) system. I would like to connect a Beogram 9500 to this network but I also want to be able to control the Beogram remotely (through a Beoremote Halo).

    I know from previous advice I’ve received in this forum that it is possible if connect the Beogram to a Beomaster with Datalink and then connect the Beomaster to the Masterlink network, using a Beolink converter (type 1611).

    What I wonder is if the Beolink converter can manage to convert Datalink signals from Beomaster to Masterlink signals, shouldn’t it also be able to convert Datalink signals from the Beogram to Masterlink, without the Beogram being connected to a Beomaster? I understand that the ML-network require an audio master but since the whole network is connected to the Network-link and there are several audio sources in the NL-network, will the existence of an audio master, be necessary?

    • This topic was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by Sia43.
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    • This topic was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Sia43.
    • This topic was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Sia43.
    #8970
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
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    Beogram control over masterlink has been raised several times in the archived forum.  Unfortunately I don’t think anyone got it to work as required!

    This thread is worth a read if you use Google translate:  https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/p/11690/102249.aspx#102249

    You may be able to use a workaround to get sound distributed, but full control does not seem to be possible.

    #8977
    Carolpa
    BRONZE Member
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    Beogram control over masterlink has been raised several times in the archived forum. Unfortunately I don’t think anyone got it to work as required! This thread is worth a read if you use Google translate: https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/p/11690/102249.aspx#102249 You may be able to use a workaround to get sound distributed, but full control does not seem to be possible.

    It is possible, but not to my knowledge on the proposed way: for example,

    Beosystem 7000 (Beomaster 7000 option 0) datalink connected to a Beolink converter T1611, which is ML connected to a Beolink converter NL/ML (BLC; set as ASlave).

    Set the Beosystem 7000 sources “available” on the NL side.

    Solution 1:

    use of Beolink Intelligence: ALL the Beosystem 7000 sources are available (as part of the BLC sources) and programable to all NL & Beocontrol Link products.

    Solution 2: No Beolink Intelligence.

    If a NL device like a Core, A6, BS35, M3, M5,…. is available in the system set-up the BLC as “linked to other Products” as primary Beolink-product (note: you have to check the boxes of the BLC sources in the “local sources list” also).

    In both cases the Halo and the apps Beoliving or/and B&o app can be used. There are/were some weird workarounds: for example, one started the Beogram 7000 as source of a Core: when expanding to multiroom, one first had to switch to BLC in the B&o app before expanding the experience (note: lately the way of using a BLC in the B&o app has improved though) .

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Carolpa.
    #8981
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
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    Many thanks, Guy and Carolpa for your responses, which are highly appreciated. I will give solution 2 a try as I don’t own a Beomaster yet.

    If I’m reading your response correctly, the second solution allows for the connection of a Beogram, directly to the ML-network (using a BL-converter), without needing a Beomaster 6500 or 7000.

    It would still be good to understnad the difference in link signal between the signal from Beogrma to BL-converter to ML in one hand and Beogram to Beomaster to BL-converter to ML Will the signals be different?

    #8990
    Carolpa
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    Many thanks, Guy and Carolpa for your responses, which are highly appreciated. I will give solution 2 a try as I don’t own a Beomaster yet. If I’m reading your response correctly, the second solution allows for the connection of a Beogram, directly to the ML-network (using a BL-converter), without needing a Beomaster 6500 or 7000. It would still be good to understnad the difference in link signal between the signal from Beogrma to BL-converter to ML in one hand and Beogram to Beomaster to BL-converter to ML Will the signals be different?

    You interpret my reply incorrectly. The Beomaster is needed.

    you can’t use solution 1 or 2 without the first part of my post.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Carolpa.
    #8992
    Sia43
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    Thanks again Carolpa for the correction.

     

    #9003
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
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    In order to look at other options, can you tell us what other B&O equipment (and with what connections) will be in the same room as your Beogram?

    Also, have you thought about RIAA amplification?  If connecting to a datalink-capable Beomaster/Beosound (or even 1611 converter) without an RIAA stage you will have to ensure that the datalink connections bypass your chosen pre-amp.

    #9032
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    Thanks Guy, for offering your help.

    Please see the below schematic for the planned B&O network. My idea was that since I’m not planning to use IRremote (but an NL-connected Halo remote), I might not need the Beomaster. It is a big chunky box that takes up space, and I don’t need it; above all, it is old and can die anytime. Also, I thought I wouldn’t need an Audiomaster as the integrated network is an NL network, which theoretically doesn’t necessitate an Audiomaster like ML. However, from what Carolpa wrote, it seems like the NL network will be the passive one, so I will need an audio master after all (or at least that is what I understand). I would, however, be happy if I could ditch the Beomaster, as long as I can remotely control the Beogram.Diagram

    #9043
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
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    Great diagram – very clear!

    I do think that you will have to use a Beomaster in order to then adopt one of Carolpa’s options.  However, some observations:

    • If you decide to use a BM7000, be aware that not all (not many?) are fitted with RIAA amplifiers which will be required for your BG9500.
    • You could get rid of the BL1611 by using an audiomaster such as Beosound Ouverture, which as far as I know is the only Beomaster with both ML and datalink.  However, you would still need an RIAA stage.
    • In order to solve the RIAA requirement whilst still using datalink you could look for (or build) something like this (I am not sure if Iconic AV are still in business): http://www.iconic-av.co.uk/item/1321/RIAA+Pre-Amplifier+with+Datalink+for+BeoGrams/
    • If connected as shown, then in Room 2 you would have a phase difference (sound delay) between the Beolab 11 and the Beosound Levels.  The output from the Beomaster (and direct to the BeoLab 11) is analogue, but is converted to digital in the ML/NL converter (hence delay) and further converted back to analogue in the Levels (hence more delay).  This is the reason why mixed ML NL systems often use a NL/ML delay box to ‘delay’ the analogue part of the system (ML) to match the digital part (NL).  In your setup, such a box could only be introduced to match BM7000 output (to Beolab 11) to NL sources, not the other way around!
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Guy.
    #9045
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
    • Total Posts 298

    Further to the above, Iconic-AV do indeed still exist (based near me!) and also have a number of items listed on eBay here:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/iconicav?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2563

    I can’t see the RIAA pre-amp box listed but it could be worth getting in touch.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Guy.
    #9052
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    Many thanks, Guy for your explanations and valuable advice. I will add the Delay-box to my list of stuff to acquire. Also, thank you for the link to Iconic-AV. I will contact them for the RIAA preamp.

    However, I still can’t stop thinking about the necessity of a Beomaster in the system. Please correct me if  I’m wrong, but I believe that Beomaster was needed to receive the IR commands and convert them to DATA-link so that the Beogram can be controlled remotely (since it doesn’t have its own IR receiver).

    In a system based on NL, however, necessary commands can be sent by Halo to the Beomaster (and through it to Beogram), enabling control of the Beogram. This signal is received from Halo -> NL -> NL/ML converter, which converts the signal to ML signals, and then the ML singles are converted again to DL signals  (though BL Converter 1611) and sent from there to the Beogram (through the Beomaster).

    Since it seems like the Beomaster is necessary, it would be great to understand what Beomaster does to the signal (if any) before it is sent to the Beogram. However, If there is no change to the signal, it should be possible to eliminate the Beomaster.

    #9053
    Carolpa
    BRONZE Member
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    Many thanks, Guy for your explanations and valuable advice. I will add the Delay-box to my list of stuff to acquire. Also, thank you for the link to Iconic-AV. I will contact them for the RIAA preamp. However, I still can’t stop thinking about the necessity of a Beomaster in the system. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that Beomaster was needed to receive the IR commands and convert them to DATA-link so that the Beogram can be controlled remotely (since it doesn’t have its own IR receiver). In a system based on NL, however, necessary commands can be sent by Halo to the Beomaster (and through it to Beogram), enabling control of the Beogram. This signal is received from Halo -> NL -> NL/ML converter, which converts the signal to ML signals, and then the ML singles are converted again to DL signals (though BL Converter 1611) and sent from there to the Beogram (through the Beomaster). Since it seems like the Beomaster is necessary, it would be great to understand what Beomaster does to the signal (if any) before it is sent to the Beogram. However, If there is no change to the signal, it should be possible to eliminate the Beomaster.

    1) you could connect the Beogram to the BLC (line-in), but you only can select the source line-in. You cannot control the Beogram (none at all, with or without RIAA preamp).
    2) so there we have the difference, you need “brains” to control the Beogram! And these brains are provided by the Beomaster (nothing else will do).

    #9054
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    Thanks, Carolpa, for the explanation. Let’s put it this way. If in the above system, I send a signal to Beogram, for example, commanding, “start playing the record”. This signal will be an NL signal that will be sent to NL/ML converter. There it is converted to ML signal and from there to BLC, where it is finally translated to Dattalink commanding “play”.

    The Beomaster receives this Datalink command and sends either the same command to the Beogram or does something with that command, so the Beogram understands it.

    So, if I understand you correctly, the signals are different, so Beomaster does something to the original signal. However, It would be great to understand what it does to the signal. It would, for example, be great if the difference could be learnt so that NL-could, after some coding, send a proper signal that could communicate with the Beogram without necessary translation by the Beomaster, simply send signals that are ready to use to ht Beogram. This could make the Beomaster redundant, which has no function in modern B&O networks other than translating signals for the Beogram. The same could hold for Beocord or Beogram CD (if someone would like to use those sources).

    #9061
    Carolpa
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 3
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    Thanks, Carolpa, for the explanation. Let’s put it this way. If in the above system, I send a signal to Beogram, for example, commanding, “start playing the record”. This signal will be an NL signal that will be sent to NL/ML converter.

    This is data signal sent to the right BLC, because on NL level it is know where the source is connected.

    There it is converted to ML signal and from there to BLC, where it is finally translated to Dattalink commanding “play”.

    ML data-address defines to which device it should send the command to

    The Beomaster receives this Datalink command and sends either the same command to the Beogram or does something with that command, so the Beogram understands it.

    The Beomaster translate the command to playing the Beogram.

    So, if I understand you correctly, the signals are different, so Beomaster does something to the original signal.

    Sorry but I do not understand what you mean with this remark. The BM simply follow the instruction given and starts the source. The same for the other devices. They, the commands, open a path for the source, Beogram, to be played in the linked system.

    note:

    1. you have the audio signals
    2. you have the data signals for controlling the system

    However, It would be great to understand what it does to the signal. It would, for example, be great if the difference could be learnt so that NL-could, after some coding, send a proper signal that could communicate with the Beogram without necessary translation by the Beomaster, simply send signals that are ready to use to ht Beogram. This could make the Beomaster redundant, which has no function in modern B&O networks other than translating signals for the Beogram. The same could hold for Beocord or Beogram CD (if someone would like to use those sources).

    That would be a BLC with the additional logic of an integrated Beomaster (discussed before on the previous forum).

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Carolpa.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Carolpa.
    #9093
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    Carolpa,

    The Beomaster translate the command to play the Beogram. So, if I understand you correctly, the signals are different, so Beomaster does something to the original signal. Sorry but I do not understand what you mean with this remark. The BM simply follow the instruction given and starts the source. The same for the other devices. They, the commands, open a path for the source, Beogram, to be played in the linked system.

    I meant that somehow The BLC sends a command to the Beomaster, for example, “tell Beomaster to tell Beogram to start playing”. The Beomaster then recode it and send a message to Beogram “start playing”. These codes are, of course, in Datalink protocol. I meant that it would be great to recode the original message so it could emulate the Beomaster and send a direct message to the Beogram as if it came from the Beomaster.

    Also, thanks for the tip about the old forum. I will search around there.

    I also read somewhere that Beolink Gateway allows for coding master link commands. Please let me know if you have any clues about the possibility of achieving what I hope to do using the gateway or, even better, through NL/ML.

    #9095
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
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    You could get rid of the BL1611 by using an audiomaster such as Beosound Ouverture, which as far as I know is the only Beomaster with both ML and datalink.  However, you would still need an RIAA stage.

    That would be a good option as it is much easier to find an overture out there than a Beomaster 6500 or 7000. Can overture control Beogram and command it to play, Stop, pause, skip forward or backwards? It seems like Overture doesn’t have a dedicated phono button, but AUX. will the Beogram understand that it is connected through AUX with full functionality?

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    #9099
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
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    Can overture control Beogram and command it to play, Stop, pause, skip forward or backwards?

    Yes, it can do all of these. You can select from the front panel with AUX and it will recognise that a Beogram is connected and show PHONO on the display. You can also select with a remote using AUX or PHONO (or N.RADIO on a later Beo4). Remember that skipping forwards/backwards isn’t a track search as such – you are just moving the arm.

    This thread describes Beogram control, albeit with a BG6500:https://archivedforum.beoworld.org/forums/p/28933/227854.aspx#227854

    Unlike with the BG6500, your BG9500 will still need that RIAA add-on.

    EDIT:  Don’t be tempted by a later Beosound 3000/3200.  Although these have a 7-pin aux socket, they do not have the datalink function hence will not control a Beogram.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by Guy.
    #9101
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    Thanks again for the information. BS-overture sounds good.

    I am finalising a deal for a Beomaster 6500, which I prefer as  I can hide it together with the BLC and NL/ML. If that deal doesn’t work, I will try to find a BS overture, which I know shouldn’t be as challenging. It took me almost two months to find a BM6500 for sale locally in the Stockholm region.

    What is left on my list is the delay box.

    Thanks again for all the information and advice.

    #9103
    Guy
    Moderator
    • Warwickshire, UK
    • Topics Started 8
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    No problem.  If you’re really lucky the BM6500 may have RIAA fitted!

    #9104
    Sia43
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 7
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    How can I find out if the RIAA is already fitted?

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