Beogram 4002 speed issues

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  • #3810
    alf
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 6
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    Hi All,

    i am working on a BG4002 with speed fluctuations at 33 & 45 rpm !

    Martin pointed the finger straight to the DC platter motor and its worn bearings.

    fair point !!

    After comparing my spare motor with the sick motor I could instantly

    feel the difference by finger-spinning its axle .

    so far so good – I swapped over the two motors but now I can not sufficiently slowing

    down the spare motor ?

    new 25-turn trimmer pots – 33 & 45 – were fitted and the speed-change relay replaced by a modern  version.

    I asked if by any chance the speed controlling IC 1003C may be faulty but was ruled

    out as a likely cause ?

    i have to mention that all inputs at the speed controlling IC 1003C show 1 V higher than specified in the circuit diagram !!

    as no other suspicious component was found would the spare motor also be in need of new bearings I wonder ??

    if indeed its bearings are also worn would that case not rather having a “breaking effect” in the motor with higher friction to be expected and running slower and with speed fluctuations ?

    anyone care to share some advice ???

    thank you

    ALF

    • This topic was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by alf. Reason: Forgot to mention
    #3811
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    Worn bearings would not cause a motor to run fast. I would approach diagnosing this in this way.

    1. Determine if the speed is fast for both 33 and 45.
    2. Determine if the speed is faster for 45 to the same extent as it is for 33.
    3. Determine what specific speed range for 33 and 45 you can adjust over.
    4. Determine whether the speed is steady even though fast.

    From the answers to the above, one can pin down the area of the system causing the problem. Feel free to post these and I’ll give you my diagnosis.

    #3813
    alf
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 6
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    My thoughts exactly, the motor should not run faster with a worn bearing !

    running faster is not so much the problem because there are trimmer pots to adjust.

    the issue is that I can not regulate sufficiently down the 33rpm speed – I can do that with the 45rpm speed though.

    i only have one 45 single and can adjust that by ear as I know Bonos voice. To my ears

    the speed sounds correct and steady.

    the same applies to the 33rpm setting apart from the regulating down issue, which I seem unable to do…it is just a tick too fast, which I can see on a strobo disc and hear – I know McCartneys voice.

    both trimmer pots are 5kOhm 25-turn Bourne trimmers.

    Both 2R2 and 1R15 are on the edge of their range but it is still too fast spinning.

    not sure if that is helping a diagnose ?

    ALF

    #3842
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    Yup need to do some measurements instead of using your ear to answer my questions. Download a turntable App for your phone such as RPM and come back with answers to 3 and 4.

    #3859
    alf
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 6
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    I guess I don’t  have to answer Q3 &Q4 ………

    not something I suspected, but the shop sold me two 2 KOhm trimmers instead of

    5 kOhm trimmers 😡😡

    too much trust is not often rewarded – now both speeds can be set and are in fact

    set now.
    The W/F is very minimal and will improve further after the DC motor has new bearings.

    ALF

    #3864
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
    • Total Posts 130

    Hi alls,

    Now the OP problem is solved I’d like to add my case.

    I’ have two BG4002, one (A) is spinning fine the other (B) not so much. The second (B) was wowing mostly in 45 rpm but now it wows also in 33 rpm. Note that it may be that wowing is more noticeable in 45 than 33 and was ever there.

    I know I need to reinfuse the bearings as a starting point but frankly, I’m afraid of this step. So I tried another way.

    I swapped parts between A and B: belt, motor, keyboard. B is still wowing.

    I did’nt swap the main board because the BG are different types and on the B, there is one of those round flat orange capacitor that is not present on the A board. So there comes my questions:

    • Can those old trimmers be responsible for fluctuations? I beleive they can cause imprecise adjustment but once they’re set, they’re set, right?
    • what can, as th OP asked, cause fluctuations when the usual suspects (belt and motor) have been ruled out.

    Thank you for your advices.

    #3867
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    You most likely need to replace the speed switch relay. There are modern replacement kits available on eBay or Beolover’s site.

    #3868
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
    • Total Posts 130

    That’s a fast reply! Thanks.

    Ok, I will look a this.

    Just for my own knowledge: how is that?
    I mean a relay is contact or no contact, haw can he create variations in speed?
    Components like capacitors, resistors etc may have their characteristics evolving with heat, time… but a relay, it sticks or it don’t, right? How could he make the speed unstable?

    Thanks again.

    #3871
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    A relay’s contacts can corrode over the decades especially when not hermetically sealed. This introduces a variable resistance which causes the speed variation. One can affect a temporary fix by carefully cleaning the contacts since the cover is removable; however, this is only a temporary fix and its very easy to bend the thin contact supports making it worse.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Mark-sf.
    #3888
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
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    That makes sense, thanks for the explanation.
    The relay are quite difficult to source I believe.
    Just to rule out that part and be sure, would it be possible to short some pins from the relay and check for speed stability.

    #3889
    mexking
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 1
    • Total Posts 19

    Apply deoxit to the contacts wait 10/15 min. clean with alcohol, I use thin paper strips doing it

    #3895
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    The OEM relay is not available, but the replacement kits are readily on eBay depending on which relay you have. This is a DPDT relay that defaults to the 33 speed when unpowered. I would only jumper that side or remove it if you want to test 45 as well.  In any case, I would always replace it at this point as any cleaning fix is only temporary and the part is cheap enough.

    #3941
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
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    Will do that, Thank you.

    #3969
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
    • Total Posts 130

    Hi, me again,

    I’ve taken out the main board just to see. The two speed trimmers where black of dirtiness like burned. I’ve cleaned them with contact cleaner. It make things a little better but not good still. Then I’ve looked at the relay: it means nothing but to looks quite clean and new.

    Anyway, what concernes me is that the relay doesn’t look like those I’m use to see on other boards, it looks smaller and not consistent with the footprint of the usual replacement relay.

    PS: I know whatever I do to play the clock I’ll need to change the relay, the trimmers and certainly other things, but I would fancy temporary fixes that also would make me understand how all this work.

    IMG_9371

    #3974
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
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    That relay is the stock one for 4002’s that have DC motors. Simply get the replacement kit for that type. If you want to experiment swap it with the muting relay as that one may be in better shape since DC does not flow thru it’s contacts.

    #3977
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
    • Total Posts 130

    Ok, I can see now, National or Siemens, you avoid me a mistake in the rush!

    – and of course it’s the one I need the most expensive 😀 –

    #4178
    matador
    Moderator
    • Paris France
    • Topics Started 16
    • Total Posts 130

    Hi Mark, Me again!

    It happen I have two replacement relay already: some times ago I edited the BG4000 paperwork for a forum member and he gifted me in return with various part including two relays!

    They seems to have the large footprint (Siemens) and my deck have National relays.
    I remembrer they were a lot of holes on the PCB and I wonder if the PCB still have the traces to use the old relay or was the PCB completely redesigned?

    Do you know that? Thanks.

    #4191
    Mark-sf
    Beoworld Member
    • Topics Started 0
    • Total Posts 57

    I know the muting board had the additional pattern so it could be the same for the main board. It is easy enough for you to check. In any case the newer sealed ones are your long term solution.

    #5831
    alf
    BRONZE Member
    • Topics Started 6
    • Total Posts 20

    Hi All,

    Just a brief summary since I started that post regarding speed issues on my 4002 table.

    replaced were the old speed trimmers with 25-turn Bourns trimmer, a modern speed-switching relay was installed and finally the DC platter motor received new bearing, which in the end settled the issue !!

    all playing nicely again 👍 or should I say “beolovely” ?!

    ALF

     

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