Adding Beolab 11 to a pair of Beosound level

[Sia43]

Hi,

I’ve just purchased a pair of Beosound Levels and aiming to use them as paired speakers in one room (most of the time). I want to add my Beolab 11 to the set to help the BS-Levels with the deeper sound registers.

I know that I can wire the BL11’s Powerlink-outs (left and right) to the BS-levels, but that would mean that I can’t send back signal from BS-Levels to BL11 and make it work with the BS-Levels if I, for example, want to use the BS-Levels sources, (Deezer, Spotify, TuneIn, etc.).

I assume this means that I somehow have to introduce BL11 in the network on its own and have it play with the BS-Levels. This is, of course, a more appropriate solution, but I don’t know which is the best solution.

For example, would a Beosound Essence MKII or Beosound Core work? Will, there be delays in the sound in such a system? will Exxence or Core work seamlessly with BS-Levels, given that they are not based on the same Mozart platform and differ in capabilities?

Or is there a way to extract the signal from BS-Levels (obviously, paired BS-levels have to share information)?

Or will adding a Chromecast-Audio to BL11 solve the problem? In this case, will I be able to see the BL11- in the list of choosable devices in the B&O-app?

Or, is there a simpler or more elegant solution to this problem?

 

[kuyttendaele]

The BL11 was targetted to be added to a BL4/6/8000/BV10/11/14

The Level was never designed nor intended to have an additional external speaker attached to it. All the internals are designed to match the speakers in the Level.

Same thing as adding a Porche 911 motor to a BMW320.

Also.. Geoff will haunt you for the rest of your days…

 

[Sia43]

Thank you for your response. I’m, of course, aware that Beosound level and Beolab 11 are from different generations and functionalities, but I also need to mention three aspects here that I believe play a role:

1- Bang & Olufsen’s philosophy encourages integration, where Masterlink, network link and older versions of the links are good examples and mixing products from different generations has never been a problem from what I understand

2- Sound doesn’t discriminate between old and new designs but is perceived by us as listeners. BS-level, for example, cannot reproduce the lowest signals with proper pressure due to its physical form, so adding a range of missing signals could potentially improve it. You are correct about the devices being balanced individually but within their physical capacities. It is clear, for example, that a three-way speaker sounds fuller than a two-way speaker as it covers the range of the sounds better/less compromised.

3- Finally, the perception of sound depends on the individual listener, which is why everyone in this forum suggests that we should listen to the speakers before buying. After listening to my BS levels, I feel that BL11 could improve the sound image (for my taste)

Having all of this said, I do, of course, respect your view, while that is not what I asked. I wondered which technical solution could provide the best and most seamless solution to combine the speakers from a purely technical perspective.

 

[Hiort]

Think the short answer is that it is not possible (in any convenient way).

Im not super technical but you need to get the left and right channels, at line level out from the Levels. I do not see how that could be done.

[Millemissen]

Honestly I never thought that I should be answering such a question ?

I’d agree with the simple short post from Hiort….not possible!

The only option I could think of is – like you mentioned – adding a CCA directly to the BL11 and then create a group of all devices.
N.B. You’d need a trigger solution for the 11 as well.

However, I am pretty sure that this among other things would cause delay issues between the 11 and the Levels……but testing is better than believing.

Furthermore you would be limited to using Chromecast for streaming to the setup.

And chromecasting means using the CC function within the source app – no way to integrate the Bang & Olufsen app there!

 

The “simpler or more elegant soltion” would be to get a Core (or an Essencense MK2) and some plain Beolabs to run along with the BL11 ?

 

MM

[Sia43]

Thank you both Hjort and Millemissen,

I’m getting a bit confused, So as a general question, if I for example stream music using B&O-app from a BS-core that is connected to Beolab 11, can BS-Levels be joined without delay?  If there will be a delay in such a system, what would it be caused by? After all they are supposedly using the same sound source, or are they?

[trackbeo]

Level has a delay to do equalization DSP (supposedly only in some orientations?).  But does this get applied to Line-In?  You should probably test this yourself: hook up a turntable or musical instrument to the Level’s Line-In jack to see if it’s noticeable.

I believe the BeoLab 11 has zero delay.  But the 11 — and of course the Level — is not in @geoffmartin ‘s list of speaker delays at https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2017/12/06/bo-tech-beolab-loudspeakers-and-third-party-systems/

B&O TV’s are supposed to correct automatically if you choose the speaker by name from a menu list.  But the Core?  Via the App?  Please let us all know…

[Stan]

A Level can join a core/essence mk2 with no perceptible delay via Network Link… I can listen to multiple NL devices, one being a Balance, without an “echo”.   Not the path I went…  I bought two Balances, but you do you.  If you like the sound that is all that matters.

[Sia43]

Thanks, Trackebo, for providing detailed information about the delay sources and Stan for confirming the functionality with the composite BS-Core + BS-Level environment. Now I need to get a Beosound core and keep my fingers crossed.

[Millemissen]

Looking forward to hear about what you’ll find out.

There is no doubt that you can adress both these parts in the app – e.g. by activating the Core/BL11 and then joining on the Level pair.

However – and that is what I meant above with “among other things” – you have no option of controlling the crossover between the BL11 and the Level. The BL11 only offers a minimum of settings there and the Level has its own ABL based bas management built in….meaning that this is variable = dependend on the SP of the device/how loud you play.
This may lead to dips or peaks in the frequency response of the setup.

However, if you can live with that or even enjoy the result – it will also very much depent on the room, where you listen and the placement of the BL11 – why not do it!

Also the handling of the playback will be somewhat inconvenient – especially if you want occasionally to move one Level to another room and back etc.
All in all not a setup that I would want……..or recommend!

This said – I hope you’ll come back to tell about your impressions in case you make the setup.

MM

[Sia43]

Thank MM for clarification. I believe I now understand your points much better.

I understand that the presence of individual DSPs in BS-Levels and their absence in BL11 may cause a delay due to different processing times; besides what you already mentioned about the portion of singles that should have been crossed over to BL-11 cross-over while the Levels will keep playing them too. A delay there would indeed cause an echo and disturb the sound image.

Theoretically, wouldn’t it be better if I fed the BL-Levels (line in) from BL11’s  PL-out (left and right)? This way, I might be able to ensure that the Levels don’t get the frequencies that BL11 intends to play. However, it might be possible that the BS-Levels DSP will decide to add those signals on its own (can it?)

Also, I’m not sure if it is only me or not, but it seems like there is a market potential for an updated BS-core with its own DSP and delay-management processor (like the one is modern B&O TVs) that could connect to any Beloab or Beosound speaker, or perhaps that is what they are trying to do with the Beosound Theater!

I also came to think about the 2+1 function in the Beolab transmitter in cases where someone (like me) wants to add a subwoofer to a pair of speakers. Does anyone knows if the 2+1 in BL-transmitter provides a simple crossover function, or is there a more sophisticated DSP behind it?

 

[Stan]

The line-in to my non-GVA Balance (which I assume is the same as a Level since both are Mozart devices) has a perceptible delay that cannot be eliminated.  This is one reason it is sold as a “music only” speaker (lip synching issues for TV audio).

With the older devices (i.e.  Essence mk2, BS2 gen1, possibly core), there is an option to remove the delay at the cost of not being able to distribute the line-in audio via NL.  I have not found a similar configuration setting for the Balance.  Of course, if your Levels have GVA, then they will not distribute the line-in audio (not that this is needed for your application, but it’s a weird limitation that needs to be mentioned whenever possible) so there is an ever so slight possibility that there is no delay.  However, I’m pretty sure that regardless of GVA status there is still a delay as there needs to be time for the DSP to work its magic (something not happening in an Essence mk2, and to a lesser extend in the BS2)

To my knowledge, the BL-transmitter doesn’t provide any cross over settings.  It simply sends whatever the source provides.

[Sia43]

Thanks, Stan, for the information, which is truly helpful.

I’m, of course, not a technician and know very little about electronics and digital sound processing, but somehow it seems to me that B&O should have considered the delay problem and provided the same fix as they offer in their more recent TVs and for their Beosound wifi speakers and BS-Core, of course. It seems like all newer Beolabs also suffer from delays, and it sounds like a mistake that anyone who wants to listen to music has to listen to it through their B&O TV, or they will have a problem with delays.

Also, you wrote, “Of course, if your Levels have GVA, then they will not distribute the line-in audio”. Why would BS-Level with GVA not distribute the line-in audio? I thought voice assistance was just a function of Google services, but what has it to do with the line-in signal?

 

[Stan]

I’m sure B&O considered the “delay problem”, but decided they were not going to solve it with these “lower end” (for B&O) speakers.  Perhaps it would have required an upgraded processor and related components which would have raised the price too much.  Engineering/Product Development is all about trade-offs, and weighing the cost vs. benefit of thousands of design decisions.  Sometimes, they get it right, sometimes they don’t.  If they don’t get it right for you, don’t buy the product… or learn to live with the limitation.  Get a pair of BL28s if you don’t want a delay (I wish).

About the fact that GVA does not allow the distribution of line-in audio, I haven’t seen an explanation for this, and I can’t think of a reasonable one, except for it being some kind of weird licensing restriction imposed by Google.  When in doubt, blame the lawyers. 😀

 

[Sia43]

Thanks, Stan for the information.

 

 

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