Lossless Apple Music to Beosound core?

[Leosgonewild]

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless. This means that if I am using Apple Music on my iPhone and transmitting to my Beosound Core via Airplay 2, I am not listening to its full potential.
what I have done is that I run a toslink cable from my Mac mini into the Beosound core.

I could also run a toslink from my Apple TV into the Beosound core.

is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?

 

[Carolpa]

Leosgonewild wrote:

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless. This means that if I am using Apple Music on my iPhone and transmitting to my Beosound Core via Airplay 2, I am not listening to its full potential. what I have done is that I run a toslink cable from my Mac mini into the Beosound core. I could also run a toslink from my Apple TV into the Beosound core. is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?

Technically speaking Airplay 2 is lossless because it supports formats up to 24bit and 48kHz (= above the resolution for CD).

to my knowledge the best method to play higher resolution with the Apple ecosystem will be the use of the toslink connection between the Core and the Mac mini

[Millemissen]

@Leo
That is correct – whether one will be able to hear the difference is another question, though.

What you could do, is to connect an old AirPort Express via toslink to the Core and stream to that.
The APE is Airplay 1, when you only stream to that….no multiroom (as soon as you use multiroom, it is AirPlay 2 = lossy).

What then would happen, when you use Beolink Multiroom from there, is not quite clear – years ago B&O wrote that Beolink Multiroom is distributed as CD quality.
However, that just says, that it is 16/44.1. It does not say anything about compresset (lossy) or not!

MM

[Millemissen]

Carolpa wrote:

Leosgonewild wrote:

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless. This means that if I am using Apple Music on my iPhone and transmitting to my Beosound Core via Airplay 2, I am not listening to its full potential. what I have done is that I run a toslink cable from my Mac mini into the Beosound core. I could also run a toslink from my Apple TV into the Beosound core. is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?

Technically speaking Airplay 2 is lossless because it supports formats up to 24bit and 48kHz (= above the resolution for CD).

to my knowledge the best method to play higher resolution with the Apple ecosystem will be the use of the toslink connection between the Core and the Mac mini

This is not a question about higher or standart resolution.
AirPlay 2 is always lossy – in order to have less strain on the wireless network and a better sync between the receivers.
A higher resolution distributed through APE2 would also be lossy (using AAC).

MM

[Carolpa]

Millemissen wrote:

Carolpa wrote:

Leosgonewild wrote:

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless. This means that if I am using Apple Music on my iPhone and transmitting to my Beosound Core via Airplay 2, I am not listening to its full potential. what I have done is that I run a toslink cable from my Mac mini into the Beosound core. I could also run a toslink from my Apple TV into the Beosound core. is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?

Technically speaking Airplay 2 is lossless because it supports formats up to 24bit and 48kHz (= above the resolution for CD). to my knowledge the best method to play higher resolution with the Apple ecosystem will be the use of the toslink connection between the Core and the Mac mini

This is not a question about higher or standart resolution. AirPlay 2 is always lossy – in order to have less strain on the wireless network and a better sync between the receivers. A higher resolution distributed through APE2 would also be lossy (using ALAC). MM

Again technically speaking if he want to feed the Core with a higher resolution music files from his Apple ecosystem, then he has, to my knowledge, skip AirPlay altogether and use the toslink connection.

[Millemissen]

Carolpa wrote:

Again technically speaking if he want to feed the Core with a higher resolution music files from his Apple ecosystem, then he has, to my knowledge, skip AirPlay altogether and use the toslink connection.

With that I certainly agree.

But Leo asked: “is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?”
And that was the question, I tried to answer.
I guess a lot of people prefer a wireless version (AirPlay) and also not many use a Mac as the daily music driver.

For me the bigger question though, is whether the difference matters – and if not the convenience of wireless is worth it?
That is a question, that only the actual listener can answer.

Maybe the mastering quality, the listening room and the speakers (and ones hearing ability) are the more important factors!

MM

[Millemissen]

For those without a Mac……..another way to do this could be to use an iDevice and an external DAC with a lightning input port such as the small Apple adapter – respectively the USB-C version of it.
There might be lightning DACs with a toslink output – I do not know of any.

I wonder if one could connect the Essence Remote to the iDevice in order to control volume and – maybe – switch tracks…..wirelessly?

Just thinking out loud ?

MM

[Millemissen]

Furthermore….those concerned about audio quality should know that one has to change this setting in Apple Music to ‘on’ – by default it is ‘off’.

Otherweise it won’t matter, whether you use a wired or a wireless (AP2) connection or not.

MM

[Carolpa]

Millemissen wrote:

Carolpa wrote:

Again technically speaking if he want to feed the Core with a higher resolution music files from his Apple ecosystem, then he has, to my knowledge, skip AirPlay altogether and use the toslink connection.

But Leo asked: “is there any other way to get a lossless Apple Music signal into the Beosound core?” And that was the question, I tried to answer.

We both did – skip Airplay: do it, as you propose, with an external DAC  connected to an iDevice or use the the Mac.

I guess a lot of people prefer a wireless version (AirPlay) and also not many use a Mac as the daily music driver.

I prefer LAN connections; so everything, when possible, is LAN-connected. That said of course I use (DLNA) controllers much. For example I use Audirvana to stream Qobuz directly to B&o devices.

For me the bigger question though, is whether the difference matters – and if not the convenience of wireless is worth it? That is a question, that only the actual listener can answer.

Maybe the mastering quality, the listening room and the speakers (and ones hearing ability) are the more important factors! MM

You do, as I do, listen to “the Harmony Codex”. “Abbey Road” and DSOTM in Dolby Atmos (correct me if I’m wrong). But in the end, I completely agree, its up to the listener.

“Hires” is a hopeless discussion, because everybody’s senses, tastes and preferences are somebody’s own; atop of the physiological and technical discussion.

I did set my preferences on my experiences.

regards

[Leosgonewild]

And just to make this more difficult, Apple Music is not supported on the older Apple TV models that has optical output.

[Mark]

Leosgonewild wrote:

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless.

A google search on this is answered by someone at the RoonLabs community:

AirPlay2 can exist in two forms: lossless 16/44.1 ALAC or lossy AAC. It’s up to the app to decide.

Perhaps Apple Music has its content in AAC?

 

[Millemissen]

Mark wrote:

Leosgonewild wrote:

If I have understood correctly, Airplay 2 is not lossless.

A google search on this is answered by someone at the RoonLabs community:

AirPlay2 can exist in two forms: lossless 16/44.1 ALAC or lossy AAC. It’s up to the app to decide.

Please post the source for that information.

Untill then try this link.

See here
and here
for the explanation that Apple Music can not be distributed via AirPlay 2.

MM

[Mark]

Millemissen wrote:

And see here for the explanation that Apple Music can not be distributed via AirPlay 2.

It says Airplay 2 is limited to 16/44.1 which is the normal CD format.  It seems to define high-res as above this, so if ALAC is encoded at 16/44.1 then it should be lossless over Airplay 2.  If ALAC is above this, say 24/192 then it would be downgraded.  Is my understanding correct?

[Mark]

For my system, I rip CDs to iTunes/Music to AIFF.  My understanding is that Airplay converts everything to ALAC or AAC, so I am hoping that means that my AIFF files are converted to ALAC 16/44.1 over Airplay 2.  When I A/B’ed a CD played on my Oppo to Airplay over AppleTV, there seemed to be a slight decrease in quality, but not much.  Certainly acceptable for the flexibility of streaming.  Both used a Bryston DAC.

[Leosgonewild]

Here is what the Beosound core is capable of handling:

MP3, WMA, AAC, ALAC, FLAC, WAV, AIFF Standard sample rates up to 192 kHz, stereo and up to 24 bit
End-to-end rendering path on the optical interface: 96kHz/24bit

My goal here is to get this into the core and out to my Beolab 5’s. I know the Beolab 5 also has its limit to what it can handle.

To clarify; I am mor e than satisfied with the sound of Airplay 2 at 16/44 for daily use.

[Carolpa]

Leosgonewild wrote:

Here is what the Beosound core is capable of handling: MP3, WMA, AAC, ALAC, FLAC, WAV, AIFF Standard sample rates up to 192 kHz, stereo and up to 24 bit End-to-end rendering path on the optical interface: 96kHz/24bit My goal here is to get this into the core and out to my Beolab 5’s. I know the Beolab 5 also has its limit to what it can handle. To clarify; I am mor e than satisfied with the sound of Airplay 2 at 16/44 for daily use.

if it is your own collection in your network, you can stream to the Core directly by using Audirvana.
streaming Apple Music isn’t supported by Audirvana (up till now). it supports Tidal and Qobuz though.

[geoffmartin]

A general comment:

It’s incorrect to infer that a system or device is lossy or lossless based only on a sampling rate and bit depth.

For example, an MP3 decoder can spit out 48 kHz / 24 bit audio. That doesn’t mean that it’s lossless.

[Carolpa]

geoffmartin wrote:

A general comment: It’s incorrect to infer that a system or device is lossy or lossless based only on a sampling rate and bit depth. For example, an MP3 decoder can spit out 48 kHz / 24 bit audio. That doesn’t mean that it’s lossless.

oeps, that’s right, never thought about it that way.

so what would be the correct criteria?

[Mark]

So according to what I’ve read, Airplay 2 may or may not deliver a lossless file.  Is there any way to determine what bit rate is being delivered to the device?  It would kind of be nice if there was an Airplay 2 device that analyzed the signal to let you know what is being received.   I wonder if B&O is able to decode the Airplay 2 mysteries.

[Sandyb]

Have you read the links that MM posted in his earlier response?

One of them had a pretty detailed analysis of scenarios and bit rates delivered/played, so a pretty exhaustive list of use cases.

That all said, I think it’s pretty well established now that from Apple Music, airplay 2’ing does not stream in 16/44 (whereas it seems some other music apps on OSX/iOS will).

 

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