Peter wrote:

I don't really think a secret ballot is necessary or entirely practical.

It's this kind of talk that makes me think twice about paying up after my previous two years paid (and founder) membership expired. Sure, it's good to win a prize now and again (if I needed more kit), but I want don't want part of a 'them and us' scenario where paid-for members (for a forum, a discussion forum!) discuss strategic decisions as a committee :)

I actually can't believe people on here think that they need to evaluate the situation and get back to Lee with an answer. It's solely Lee's decision, it's just an advert/campaign and there are far more pressing things in my (and our) day-to-day life.

Fair play Peter - but part of me wonders why you bother asking the question if the answers received to do not fit the responses you were looking for? After all, life takes all sorts and a diversity of responses was surely to be expected.

One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around.

I think there's a wider malaise here that needs to be addressed. I for one have been a relatively active meber of the forum for four years or so now, but I sometimes wonder why I bother when I know that a handful posts I have made have been edited and/or moved, and I've ultimately acquiesced to this without really coming to terms with the fact that when this happens even with the most honourable intentions, the result is to in some way compromise the poster and begin to push the slightest wedge between the wider membership and the mods. No doubt I'll be either lambasted or ignored for this, but that's just where I'm at wrt Beoworld at the moment. Oh well...there's always doctors.net, and newbeetle.co.uk for my new motoring interest I suppose.

moxxey wrote:

Peter wrote:

I don't really think a secret ballot is necessary or entirely practical.

It's this kind of talk that makes me think twice about paying up after my previous two years paid (and founder) membership expired. Sure, it's good to win a prize now and again (if I needed more kit), but I want don't want part of a 'them and us' scenario where paid-for members (for a forum, a discussion forum!) discuss strategic decisions as a committee :)

I actually can't believe people on here think that they need to evaluate the situation and get back to Lee with an answer. It's solely Lee's decision, it's just an advert/campaign and there are far more pressing things in my (and our) day-to-day life.

To be fair, Lee asked for peoples thoughts. Some decided they'd like to think about it, but posted to say as much rather than appearing to have ignored Lee's request.

It is Lee's site, however he's always run it as a community and I for one am pleased that he asks for members (both paying and non-paying) opinions before acting. The final choice will always be his but he has demonstrated, on more than one occasion, his "community spirit" and the site is all the better because of it.

As an aside, my membership fee has always been unconditional, I don't consider myself to have any sort of "shareholding" and I would decline many (not all) of the prizes if I didn't have a real use for them - I'd rather someone won them that did.

@Lee

“To be sure, I’m not merely saying that you should ‘declare’ if you want to run BeoWorld for profit or not! Only that the rules to play by will be distinctly different under each alternative and rather imposed on you from the outside. That said, I’ve no doubt there will be plenty of valuable advice from the members no matter what you decide to do … and if one alternative doesn’t work then there is another one to try.

Okay - i 'declare' that i am not interested in making money out of BeoWorld.  If we end up with money in the bank and debt free, i will simply look at either spending it improving the site, or will channel it back into the Prize Draw.  If we ended up with a nice big amount of cash in the bank, i would actually consult the membership as to how best to spend it.  I've posted threads on here asking how you would like to see the site improved - and acted on it.  I have a track record of honesty with you guys, and i'd like to think i've never let you down. Surely that counts for something?”

- Absolutely, and despite my admittedly vague formulation which I’d attempted to clarify a few posts below it, it was/is not my aim to question what you (re)state.  No need to reply to the following it’s meant as food for thought …

In short, though I doubt B&O would now go as far as accepting, say, a clearly separated (non-commercial!) section on BeoWorld to voice whatever and whenever they thought it ok to communicate here, I think it might be more interesting as well as conceptually/contextually more appropriate. - Maybe they feel there would be too much of unpredictability and uncontrollability attached to this?

Many say let them have some ads, but perhaps the same people might agree that such a non-commercial section would be, in fact, more desirable (also, you are free to click on it – or not). Maybe if certain – ‘civilized’ - rules were agreed on, such as members agreeing not to ask them for direct response (eg such as disappointed customers) … this perhaps might be mutually understandable, manageable and acceptable?

I don’t fear of fewer independent views as a result of B&O’ advertising, rather asking, how sustainable – in principle – is a relationship between us and our ‘silent target’ at which we ‘shoot from hip’ while receiving for this, well, a 'reward' from our very same target? (If this 'reward' is a paid-for ad or ‘in kind’ is rather irrelevant in such a context...)

I thought this is not too boring:
@moxxey – BeoForum ala BeoWorld?

I think one cannot expect B&O to create anything like BeoWorld themselves, because it would quite simply be against human nature: similarly to you and me, a company is not really going to engage in a dialog (in addition in public – or with the office door wide open) in which the other party has very little to lose – if not nothing - while basically asking you to ‘take off your clothes and tell everything about you’ … You can’t really blame them (I know you don’t). Surprising that B&O tried … Of course, B&O know all this very well, now. My guess is, they are now perhaps just a bit more puzzled by BeoWorld and maybe try to figure out if/how all this could be turned into something positive – for everybody (ie their customers and hence themselves).

Back to Lee:

“@ Hardwriter

At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.

You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.

A comment that has been brushed upon many times.  Our aim was to have minimal advertising, and from that we looked to have 'one per genre' with any advertiser being useful to the membership.

I had a Mobile Phone Company offer me more than any other advertiser we have to have a banner onsite. I refused.  We had a web company looking to place specific ads for anything from Sportswear to Holidays in rotation in a box at the bottom of the page, offering £2,500 a year. I refused.

If we are deemed 'Commercial' and are forced to accept advertising, i will pull the lot before plastering the site with ads.  It would either be that, or i turn BeoWorld into a free-for-all and make myself a whole load of money accepting adverts from anyone and everyone. Fifty flashing boxes advertising cheap pharmaceuticals anyone? No, i thought not. 

Our sponsors are professional, reliable and trustworthy. This is why they are rewarded with being the only advertiser in their field as well as being our way of saying thank you for supporting us.”

Lee, wrongly or rightly, such approach is, rather jokingly, ‘coined’ by the media industry’s constituting parties as ‘attempts at playing god’ (You decide who should be an advertiser and who not, you decide on what is good for advertisers and what not, you decide what advertising messages are good for the audience and which not etc.) I guess once entering the realm of media everyone becomes instantly tempted to become  one (god) – just look at my own first four paragraphs 😉… I also know it has its consequences.

And finally: If B&O went for the ads only, they would be settling for (maybe not even) the second best – wouldn’t they? The advantage would though, of course, be eliminating the element of a cumbersome dialog etc.

Then again, I might be wrong and others right with respect to the ads, in a sense that ‘a picture can sometimes be worth more than a thousand words’, after all…

Clearly, the warning signs as well as many good ideas people flash out in response to your post are meant well, however dramatic and exaggerated it all might sound. Indeed they illustrate people do  care for what you (guys) do!

🙂

j0hnbarker wrote:

Fair play Peter - but part of me wonders why you bother asking the question if the answers received to do not fit the responses you were looking for? After all, life takes all sorts and a diversity of responses was surely to be expected.

One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around.

I think there's a wider malaise here that needs to be addressed. I for one have been a relatively active meber of the forum for four years or so now, but I sometimes wonder why I bother when I know that a handful posts I have made have been edited and/or moved, and I've ultimately acquiesced to this without really coming to terms with the fact that when this happens even with the most honourable intentions, the result is to in some way compromise the poster and begin to push the slightest wedge between the wider membership and the mods. No doubt I'll be either lambasted or ignored for this, but that's just where I'm at wrt Beoworld at the moment. Oh well...there's always doctors.net, and newbeetle.co.uk for my new motoring interest I suppose.

 

A couple of points here - I think the majority of posts are actually positive. The question was posed so that members knew what was going on and Lee wished to get a feel for what the members of the forum felt. In my view, I am afraid that the membership fees are just that: they are paid to access manuals and the for sale area and in the case of gold membership, access to the prize draw, which has a superb set of prizes and a very good chance of winning. It also helps support the site and I know many members join for exactly this reason. On a personal note I have been supporting this site financially for many years and at considerably more cost than the membership fee. I expect nothing back at all and certainly have no say in the running of this site. I merely enjoy being a member  and think it is worth it. I certainly have no feeling of owning the site - this has always been the case.

All sites need to be moderated or risk falling into a morass of flaming and pornography. I cannot think of any of your posts that have been moderated though obviously I accept that you know better. Most posts are moderated automatically and these will be sorted manually when noticed. Other posts are only moderated when offensive to other members. I think the moderating on this site is extremely hands off - I personally have done no moderating for a couple of months except to approve posts caught in the spam filter and correct some spelling to help make a post more understandable. (I think our non English speakers are incredible to be able to post in English so well) I think you will find the moderating at doctors.net rather more formal.

At the end of the day, this site is here to provide a source of information and entertainment for those interested in B&O. It was set up for no other purpose. In my view the purpose has not changed but we have massively expanded the site and offer more information and more entertainment. I still see no other purpose. All sites cost money to run and this is why there is a silver and gold membership. However the forum depends on all classes of members. We are very grateful for those members who help support the site - without them the site would not exist in its present form - but we also value the bronze members who contribute so much to the forum.

Peter wrote:

At the end of the day, this site is here to provide a source of information and entertainment for those interested in B&O. It was set up for no other purpose. In my view the purpose has not changed but we have massively expanded the site and offer more information and more entertainment. I still see no other purpose.

Peter,

This is exactly why I joined.  The site rejuvenated my interest in old B&O and has helped me considerably in learning more.  I have never seen the site as some form of co-operative with voting rights.  That's not what I pay my 30 quid for.  I am endebted to Lee for funding it and to all the members for their advice and for the sheer pleasure of reading their views on it.  If the relationship with B&O can be enhanced as a result of advertising, that's great.

Cleve  

- Wouldn't it be a little strange if a brand enthusiast site blocked for cooperation with the brands marketing ?
- Wouldn't it be a little strange if a brand enthusiast site wouldn't allow the brand to advertize by them ?
(Aren't we already ? - The site is filled with photos and descriptions of their products).

Evaluating new products, I can't see as a problem regarding independency. We've done it before and
everybody was happy. If a turkey comes along, we'll be honest and call it exactly that, we've done that
before too.
The opinion we give will always be that of the evaluating members, never that of B&O themselves.
I see it as merely giving B&O a second opinion and/or honest feedback from potential buyers.
Not many brands have this opportunity - this is something that we can give B&O and it can be extremely
valuable for them - but it only works as long as we're independent. This again means that B&O would never
benefit from controlling Beoworld.
I also see it as a huge opportunity for us to help B&O through hard times, something that not
many brands will get.

I say we try it and if it starts to look scruffy, we'll just stop.

Martin

j0hnbarker wrote:

Lee - given some of the repetitive nature of the comments posted that you responded to, I would have appreciated it if you could have taken the time to respond to the points I raised a couple of days ago about prioritising input from paid up members of this site before proceeding. I think it is important that those of us who have shelled out money in subs to keep the site going have a say here in some form of secret ballot, and I personally think that this crucial and perfectly sensible request may have been drowned out by the numbers of responses in general.

More widely I would ask other paid up Beoworlders whether this is something they think we deserve?

I am a paying member.... and don't take this the wrong way... but I don't think that means I deserve more input. I have received some very valuable information on this site from people who are non paying members. All members of this site, paying or non paying are valuable contibutors. The important thing in a forum is that people DO contribute.

j0hnbarker wrote:

One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around. 

I'm sorry but I do not remember reading at any stage when paying my membership fee, that I was buying shares in BeoWorld.  You pay membership fee's, not subs, for services provided.  The outstanding services are providing financial support for the site, just like any other product you as a consumer buy it, the company make money and this pays to run the company so they can continue to sell products.  If i buy a tin of beans in Tescos I don't expext an invitation to their next board meeting, but they may ask my opinion next time I'm in the store as to my experiences.  It's only my opinion but I think your way off the mark with this one!  

Okay..

@ j0hnbarker..

Does your 'vote' count half as much being a Silver Member compared to a Gold Member that paid twice what you did then? 

If everyone was Bronze, i'd still ask the same question and take on board the answers.  The whole idea at the start, if you remember, was not to persecute non-paying members and make them feel guilty for not 'supprting the site' financially. Do you recall the threads that discussed this in great detail?

There was talk about a wedge between the mods and members - but wouldn't ignoring Bronze Members drive a wedge between the paying and non-paying members?  That was never the intention.. i created the Prize Draw and Peter scanned and uploaded literally thousands of rare/unobtainable user manuals to simply say 'thank you' to people for contributing financially.  Believe me, the Prize Draw takes up a hell of a lot of time and is something most people wouldn't have bothered with. I do it to show my appreciation of the people that pay their hard earned money to keep the site going.

As for a secret ballot?  We're talking about B&O popping an advert on the site, not buying it outright or evicting us from the internet...

Lee