Jacques,

   That's a very interesting piece of advice regarding the ability to retip an MMC pickup from one type to another within the same range.  Thank you.  I hadn't considered that but it definitely opens up more possibilities (hmm, I was half hoping for feedback that would eliminate one or another choice rather than give me more to consider 😉).  The Beogram 4002 for sale comes fitted with an MMC20EN, whereas the Beogram 8000 has an MMC20CL (as well as all the original packing materials and paperwork, which is appealing in its own right).  The 8002, which is still undergoing restoration, would be fitted with an MMC3 which, as was mentioned, I could replace with the SMMC2 I already have in hand.  Knowing the MMC20EN could be retipped as an MMC20CL eliminates a possible discriminator between the 4002 and 8000.   Ah decisions, decision.  TIme for a little soul searching as to what aspect of these turntables really appeals to me most and then moving forward from there, as Jeff astutely recommended.

-Charley

In 1985 I purchased a TX, and, like you, lusted for the 8002 but could in no way afford it.

Fast forward to ~2008: we are finishing up converting our barn-house to make it WONDERFUL and to be fully accessible since my accident that paralyzed me at the waist in 95, and we are finishing off the "basement' stall area to be a place for all that is musical. Contemporaneously , I discover the internet, Beoworld, eBay, AK.......; I dig out all my system stuff that's been packed away since my accident, and set it up on sawhorses and a sheet of plywood. The TX feeds a Yamaha C85 preamp, the only other component I ever bought new. It is sublime! All my old friends, singing beautifully, but now, with the internet, many things I formerly lusted for are now within reach! Thus began my new pastime of running and sometimes restoring vintage audio stuff. One of my first acquisitions was an 8002, and from the start it was an adventure. The tonearm carriage coupling to the worm nut broke in transit and I had to disassemble it to repair that. Then, the inevitable aging capacitor thing struck and the deck would end play half-way through a great performance. That lead me here and to Dillen and you folk. Since then I have acquired many things I only dreamed of 30 years ago when I was 36! And I'm realizing I may be a little compulsive. I have restored and used 4002 and 8000, as well as several 8002s, my favorites. Maybe I favor the 8002 because it was what I wanted when I got the TX, or because it so resembles my old friend. Whatever, choose what you want. I'm sure you will be satisfied with any of them. As an aside, however-the TX is one hell of a competent deck in it's own right, almost like a re-designed 4002. I don't understand why it is given so little recognition.

All good turntables - but so is the RX! There is quite a bit more to go wrong in a tangential deck and listen blind and you will be hard pressed to tell them apart! However we buy often with our eyes and heart rather than ears so if you have set your heart on a tangential, get one. Which one?

I like the 4000 - despite being the oldest, it is by far the best engineered. Problematic to fix but once working, it is a joy. It is all metal and wood so will last for ever - however the aluminium chassis does not like damp and the metal corrodes - I have had one that has suffered from bad starage (not me!)

The 4002/4 is a slightly simpler version - sounds just the same despite being lighter - not quite as pretty in my view and the keypad gets wear marks eventually.

The 8000/2 has the big disadvantage of having a lot of cheap plastics - the hinge explodes and is not fixable except by replacement - and the replacement will eventually do the same. Never found the ribs made much difference - they do sound better with a rubber mat but that rather negates the reason for getting one in the first place. Very clever motor but at the end of the day, they all make the record go round accurately enough for me and I don't measure and can't hear minute differences.

Cartridges do however make a difference. I loved the MMC6000 in my youth - my favourite of all B&O cartridges. However I doubt there are many left in any sort of decent condition. The 20CL is a good substitute as is a Shibata tipped cartridge from Axel. The S has sibilance in spades in my experience and is the wrong colour!!

The TX or 6002 is a forgotten deck - in many ways a 4002 with the new styling and cheap plastics. I would personally get the 4002 but the 6002 is usually a real bargain.

Manbearpig wrote:

Hi Jeff,

thanks for all of your insightful information. I have two Beogram 4000s. Unfortunately one has a broken mount on the tonearm. The other one has noisy motors. Therefore, I've decided to make one out of the two. It's a pity but when the tonearm is broken, there's hardly any hope.

I have an integrated RIAA in my Beomaster 7000 and intend to use the Beogram 4000 with my Beosystem 7000 and Pentas. I'm curious finding out how that goes. Heven't read much on here about how combining old and new in that form works.

Greetings,

Kai,

who likes the MMC6000 very much ;-)

 

 

 

Hi Kai,

Yes, it’s a pity to destroy one BG 4000 to get a wholly good one, but it sounds necessary.

If I had it to do all over, knowing what I do now, I would not have discarded the mechanicals/electronics of my original BG 8000. However the three shops that attempted to repair it (St. Petersburg, Florida, Victoria, BC, and Surrey BC) butchered it so badly that I was convinced at the time, it was un-repairable. But that was then, this is now….

And don’t get me wrong, the MMC 6000 is a wonderful cartridge, I love mine (which was a gift from the same friend you gave me his working BG 8000) it is just its annoying habit for collecting debris and then sounding TERRIBLE.

A few swipes with the Magic Eraser and it is back in top form…. but not for long.

Enjoy your combined BG 4000!

Jeff

735boat wrote:

Jacques,

   That's a very interesting piece of advice regarding the ability to retip an MMC pickup from one type to another within the same range.  Thank you.  I hadn't considered that but it definitely opens up more possibilities (hmm, I was half hoping for feedback that would eliminate one or another choice rather than give me more to consider 😉).  The Beogram 4002 for sale comes fitted with an MMC20EN, whereas the Beogram 8000 has an MMC20CL (as well as all the original packing materials and paperwork, which is appealing in its own right).  The 8002, which is still undergoing restoration, would be fitted with an MMC3 which, as was mentioned, I could replace with the SMMC2 I already have in hand.  Knowing the MMC20EN could be retipped as an MMC20CL eliminates a possible discriminator between the 4002 and 8000.   Ah decisions, decision.  TIme for a little soul searching as to what aspect of these turntables really appeals to me most and then moving forward from there, as Jeff astutely recommended.

-Charley

Hi Charlie,

You want help narrowing your decision, buy the 4002. Between a BG 8000 and a BG 4002/4004 I would absolutely go for the better built and (in my opinion) esthetically more pleasing 4002.

Jeff

Is it a 4002 with heavy platter and AC motor? It is the best.

Peter wrote:

All good turntables - but so is the RX! There is quite a bit more to go wrong in a tangential deck and listen blind and you will be hard pressed to tell them apart! However we buy often with our eyes and heart rather than ears so if you have set your heart on a tangential, get one. Which one?

I like the 4000 - despite being the oldest, it is by far the best engineered. Problematic to fix but once working, it is a joy. It is all metal and wood so will last for ever - however the aluminium chassis does not like damp and the metal corrodes - I have had one that has suffered from bad starage (not me!)

The 4002/4 is a slightly simpler version - sounds just the same despite being lighter - not quite as pretty in my view and the keypad gets wear marks eventually.

The 8000/2 has the big disadvantage of having a lot of cheap plastics - the hinge explodes and is not fixable except by replacement - and the replacement will eventually do the same. Never found the ribs made much difference - they do sound better with a rubber mat but that rather negates the reason for getting one in the first place. Very clever motor but at the end of the day, they all make the record go round accurately enough for me and I don't measure and can't hear minute differences.

Cartridges do however make a difference. I loved the MMC6000 in my youth - my favourite of all B&O cartridges. However I doubt there are many left in any sort of decent condition. The 20CL is a good substitute as is a Shibata tipped cartridge from Axel. The S has sibilance in spades in my experience and is the wrong colour!!

The TX or 6002 is a forgotten deck - in many ways a 4002 with the new styling and cheap plastics. I would personally get the 4002 but the 6002 is usually a real bargain.

Hi Peter,

I am certain that you know how much I agree with your views on the Beogram 4000.

The esthetics aside (the 4000 is simply gorgeous!) there is a bit more to the difference between the 4000 and the 4002.

I especially like the single button for forward/fast forward and return/fast return. The 4002 has 2 separate buttons which are not nearly as refined or as easy to use. Nice touch having a single button where increased pressure gives you increased seep. Very nice touch!

Then there is the strobe. True you don’t need it much, but it is nice to have and is visually interesting.

I rather wish that my 4000 was a better example, but it didn’t have an easy life, repaired by a shop that didn’t understand it, and then shattered in shipment to me.

However in spite of it’s inauspicious past, this Beogram 4000 still manages to delight and remains my best performing turntable out of six.

One last thing, the buttons on the BG 4002/4004 do indeed suffer more than the 4000 for whatever reason, but I found using a cloth instead of your finger prevents this issue. Perhaps a bit OCD, but it works.

Jeff

I'm on the road most of this week with only sporadic access to the internet but wanted to thank everyone for your continuing feedback while I had the chance this evening.  Your comments have been very helpful and reading them has been a nice counterbalance to a long day of flight delays!  Just a couple quick responses to a few comments:

Jacques:  I'm not sure whether the 4002 has the AC motor and heavier platter or not but will ask the seller when I get back at the end of the week.  Will let you know.

Pfcs49:  What is it about the 8002's that make them your favorites?

Peter: Thank you for putting a number of things in perspective, including on the tangential drive.  My education and initial career were in engineering and I still have a tendency to get enamored by specifications if not reined in by common sense.  The speed accuracy of that drive is impressive; however, it sounds like it might not translate to any real audible difference.  The technology is still pretty interesting, though.  Your mention of exploding hinges caught my eye. Yikes!  I'd read that the design was weak and tended to break but didn't realize it was quite that violent.  Is there no other option than replacing a broken hinge with an identical copy?  I'm guessing it's a unique design but wanted to ask.

-Charley

735boat wrote:

I'm on the road most of this week with only sporadic access to the internet but wanted to thank everyone for your continuing feedback while I had the chance this evening.  Your comments have been very helpful and reading them has been a nice counterbalance to a long day of flight delays!  Just a couple quick responses to a few comments:

Jacques:  I'm not sure whether the 4002 has the AC motor and heavier platter or not but will ask the seller when I get back at the end of the week.  Will let you know.

Pfcs49:  What is it about the 8002's that make them your favorites?

Peter: Thank you for putting a number of things in perspective, including on the tangential drive.  My education and initial career were in engineering and I still have a tendency to get enamored by specifications if not reined in by common sense.  The speed accuracy of that drive is impressive; however, it sounds like it might not translate to any real audible difference.  The technology is still pretty interesting, though.  Your mention of exploding hinges caught my eye. Yikes!  I'd read that the design was weak and tended to break but didn't realize it was quite that violent.  Is there no other option than replacing a broken hinge with an identical copy?  I'm guessing it's a unique design but wanted to ask.

-Charley

Hi Charley,

As you know I have a Beogram 8000 and 8002…. and wouldn’t part with them for all the world.

That said many of us favour the Beogram 4000 and with good reason, but it is basically made of unobtainium. Gotta be realistic here.

Moving forward Peter says he can’t hear the difference between any of your choices and he is most likely right. The cartridge makes the BIG difference. (Luck will be involved.)

So I meant what I said; buy a Beogram 4002 or 4004. You have a 4002 offered locally, if it really is a good one, take my advice, buy it.

Beltless doesn’t mean an damn thing and it comes with so many cheap plastic parts. Buy the 4002!

Jeff

I have had a number of the 8000 type deck - one 8000 and a 6002 suffered from the exploding hinge syndrome - the 8002 seemed fine when last seen! Once gone, one simply lost the spring in the lid. I just left as it was as I keep the lid closed when playing the record anyway. A pain when changing and cleaning records though. I couldn't see an easy fix as the parts were just lots of small bits of plastic.