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Problem with 12" 45 rpm vinyl - Beogram 5000 MMC4

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Martynka
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Martynka posted on Mon, Jan 28 2019 9:46 PM

I have a problem with playing 12 'vinyls at 45 rpm I bought two albums, one 200 g, second 180 g. Both with a playback speed of 45 rpm. Beogram 5000 recognizes them as 33 rpm and I manually switch to 45 rpm.

Unfortunately, the sound is much worse than at 33 It seems that the needle leaps between the grooves. Where is the problem ?? With MMC4 after the retip ?? Maybe I have to try once again to balance arm ??

 

Help me, my B&O all-knowing colleagues !!!

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

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marco
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marco replied on Tue, Jan 29 2019 2:54 PM

Hello

maybe you have to check correct tracking weight, I've had many turntables, any B&O, on which I've always play 12" 45rpm vynil without problems.

Have a nice Tuesday

MArco

trackbeo
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+1 on checking the tracking weight, or maybe the whole vertical tracking mechanism, if it looks like the weight is set properly.  

A less-likely reason for groove jumping can be warped vinyl (or rarely, off-center hole vs. grooves).  45 RPM vs. 33RPM exacerbates the problem, as the dip (or eccentricity) whips past the cartridge faster thus the negative acceleration at the tip of the arm is greater.  However, 12" 45's of heavy weight vinyl as you describe, typically being audiophile pressings, are less likely to exhibit such problems than 7" 45's of 1970s pop music or old, abused, disco/DJ pressings.  (Of course any such problems are worse on the short-arm B&O turntables, where the distances are closer and an irregularity is more likely to bottom out the stylus and bang into the cartridge.  There was a reason turntables that had to play 78 RPM and early 33 RPM records had tonearms that looked like this:

http://www.soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2507%3Afairchild-200-turret-transcription-viscous-damped-tonearm&catid=20%3Atonearms&Itemid=5

Martynka
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I set the balance several times according to the Sound Smith instructions.

https://www.sound-smith.com/how-balance-your-bo-tone-arm-and-set-proper-tracking-force

Maybe something wrong here ?? 

Vinyls are completely new, straight from the foil


Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Martynka
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New facts,

I checked everytgink one more time and... Both 45rpm vinyls weigh about 200g (on albums it is written that they are audiophile 180g).

So I bought another audiophile album 180 g but 33 rpm. And ... the same problem. The needle jumps and falsifies sounds.

So I went the other way and I used the regular disc (not 180 g) for 45 turns and it's just play faster but clean.

I checked if there is a problem with measuring the weight inside of Beogram. Before the start, I put 20 g of weights on a regular vinyt ( vinyl + weight had weight a real 180 g vinyl) and the problem did not occur at 33 rpm and 45 rpm.

Problem in MMC after retip?

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Martynka
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My problem on YouTube

 

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Søren Mexico
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Is the anti skating adjusted correctly

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

trackbeo
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I'm no expert, but notice that the jumping happens to correspond with the higher volume break of the song?  Also you're playing at the outer edge of the record?  Such behavior could be an anti-skating control messed up... BUT there were plenty of threads years back about how these turntables didn't have any problem with their anti-skate controls but rather had dried-out lubricants.  Get down at eye-level with your platter and see if the stylus cantilever is tilted while playing, possibly hard to the right (\).  It should be basically vertical, sometimes very slightly to the left of center because the record is dragging the stylus in and the cartridge and tonearm follow.  (Or very slightly to the right because the anti-skating control is trying to counteract that.  But the keyword is "slightly".) It looks like you're skipping ahead and not behind, so you might try it on a loud track near the middle of the record instead of the outer edge?  Yet I don't see any reason for this to be worse at 45RPM, which is where you started.  Maybe the extra-heavy vinyl is thicker and raises the end of the tonearm enough to change the geometry of the stylus on the record -- it would *already* have to be broken or mis-adjusted in some way, but was borderline and thick record exacerbates it?  Sorry, these are all wild guesses, and I don't have any experience with how re-tipping can go right or wrong, to help you with your initial suspicion.  Of course the easiest test is to bring out your "spare" turntable and your "older" cartridge, and swap them around.  Difficult if this is your only setup, I know.  Particularly difficult if you have never seen this particular turntable working with a cartridge before your re-tipped MMC4 and don't know what to expect.  But at least these are things to try until a true expert offers you better advice.

Søren Mexico
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check distance as in pic for "normal" and 180 gr. LP

 


Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Martynka
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Martynka replied on Thu, Jan 31 2019 10:01 PM

I did some experiments :

- When I put on a thick vinyl, regular vinyl (I have two vinyls on a turntable together), the thickness is much bigger but the turntable plays normally.

- When I put on turntables plate distance ( about 0,5 mm or 1 mm ) and on top I put regular vinyl, turntable plays without problems. 

Looks like problem is realy in 200 g vinyl

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Søren Mexico
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here a pic with my BG 5000 and MMC2 from Axel playing 180 gram new vinyl

 


Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Søren Mexico
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I have the Mariah Carey EP 180 gr. and it also plays without problems, so I think the problem is with deck adjustments, I adjusted my deck about 4 years ago and have never had problems

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Martynka
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Martynka replied on Thu, Jan 31 2019 10:27 PM

Thanks, I try to take photo my 180 g LP with retiped MMC4

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Martynka
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Martynka replied on Thu, Jan 31 2019 10:40 PM

Here is:

 

Beosystem 5000 - (Beomaster 5000, Beocord 5000, Beogram 5000, Beogram CD50, Master Control Panel 5000, Terminal 5000 Remote Controller), Beovox M70, Beogram 5500, Beogram 5005, Beogram 8002, MMC1 - fully refubrished with nude Shibata, MMC2, MMC4 - newly retipped with elliptical,  MMC4 - newly retipped with nude Fine Line, Beosystem 5500 - (Beomaster 5500, Beocord 5500, Beogram 5500, Beogram CD5500, Master Control Panel 5500, Beolink 1000)

Søren Mexico
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The cantilever in yours looks different, both my B&O MMC2 and Soundsmith SMMC4 are a little bend where the needle is attached, yours look straight, I dont know if this will influence the tracking but I dont think so. I would go back and do all the mechanical adjustment from the beginning according to the manual, if that doesnt help try with another pickup 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

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