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BEOVISION ECLIPSE

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svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:08 PM

Frankly, the core discussion now is not "Who consulted who and to what extent". None of these "assumptions" will make the B&O OLED perform any better than SONY or LG or Loewe. These TVs are already darn good.

The core question is "if the Eclipse 65 is worth $ 17,000" in the eyes of buyers. 

For some , it may still make all the sense and for many (including me), I am missing the magic in Eclipse and still paying for it. In my books, 65 Eclipse is seriously overpriced (even by B&O standards). Equivalent sized SONY is < $4,000 and LG is actually only $ 2,700....With fully acknowledging the B&O differentials like Sound etc...

(If there will be one) Eclipse 77 @ $ 20K-$ 22K is a better buy for me than Eclipse 65 @ $17K. At that size, I am okay with the premium over competition but the Eclipse 65 is a no go for me.

This a a great discussion on this forum as we all are informing each other on our points of views, for what it is worth.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:35 PM

Don't think those price comparisons are quite fair, though yes the broader point remains, they are expensive (may always have been)

The LG 65 E7 is 4000 GBP (roughly 5250 USD) and the 65 G7 is 7000 GBP (roughly 8500 USD) - i think those are fairer comparison to me. Why ? Because those are the high end offerings from LG with, wallpaper aside, their best foot forward sound and design wise - which after all is a lot of what B&O offer over and above the norm. I don't know the 65 inch Eclipse price, but i'd ignore the floor stand price. If its around 11-12k GBP, thats 13-14K USD. Obviously local price differences (after accounting for FX rates) is a different matter.

Otherwise, yes there are lower priced OLED 65 inch offerings, but then thats a different question, one where the design, form factor and audio is less important. 

And do the LGs and Sony's have the surround processing chops / audio flexibility that the B&O's do - don't think they do. Point being, it is hard to do a like for like comparison because there isn't one amongst the Sony and LG OLEDs unless i am badly mistaken.

As ever, getting the same functionality as a BV through separate pieces can be done - just depends on whether or how much people value the neatness of a BV package. Its a stretch i concede, but one many of us have made in the past. I thought my 12-65 + BS 4 was absurdly priced when released (around 14k GBP), but was very happy with an ex-display at 7k GBP. We all face these tricky value judgements, assuming money is constrained - but twas ever thus. 

Anyway, lets wait and see how interesting the offering is. While the likely LG video engine will irk some, especially compared to what Loewe have done, i suspect the design and sound bar / speaker will be the more divisive issue for many, some will love it, others will doubtless not. If its indeed like the 7-55, thats a more love it or hate it design than the Avant or BV11/14, which most generally don't have a problem with.

svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:44 PM

Hi Sandyb,

Not sure what the prices in Europe are but the prices in US for LG 65E7 is $ 2700. Please check out the following link where many sellers use the "Used as New" categorization just to get away from having to advertise the TV @ MSRP.

It may be different in Europe but in the US LG65E7 has really dropped in price. BTW, Eclipse does not have full blown Beosystem as Avant or BV9 had. G7 is also way lower than the prices you have quoted.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01MZF7YUD/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all

 

 

svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:44 PM

Hi Sandyb,

Not sure what the prices in Europe are but the prices in US for LG 65E7 is $ 2700. Please check out the following link where many sellers use the "Used as New" categorization just to get away from having to advertise the TV @ MSRP.

It may be different in Europe but in the US LG65E7 has really dropped in price. BTW, Eclipse does not have full blown Beosystem as Avant or BV9 had. G7 is also way lower than the prices you have quoted.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01MZF7YUD/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all

 

 

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Bv7Mk3 replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:45 PM

Oh look theres a little bird in my Eclipse...,,tweet tweet.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 4:56 PM

Fair enough, if those Used are actually New.....i can only quote the prices i see here, and its difficult to take account of heavy discounting. 

LG's are more widespread, so not surprised they get discounted, which won't happen with B&O for obvious reasons. If B&O produced much higher volumes, then there may well be some decent discounting on BV's, but they don't, so a moot point.

Anyway, i'm actually not going to change either my 12-65 or Avant 55, so observe from a distance only. I've paid my premium over the norm to get where i am, and am happy to have done so - i have achieved exactly what i wanted to, and its much better in every way than anything i had before (which in itself was pretty good).

 

 

svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:07 PM

Perfectly fair. If I had invested in 2 recent B&O TVs, I will honestly not be looking too but I have BV9 (1080P) and though it is still great TV on it's own, I personally know that new technologies have far surpassed what I have. Hence in the market for new OLED.

I really wanted to get a big screen this time as this may be the last TV that I purchase ( got to get out of that mad race SmileI and was hoping to see the B&O 77 OLED @ Avant 75 prices. It is the 65 inch size and the price that is not adding up for me. I have pretty much made up my mind to get SONY 77 inch which will be still a bit cheaper than Eclipse 65 (Though small savings is not the driver here but rather the picture quality and screen size).

BTW, Eclipse 65 in the US is $ 17K (Including Stand)...

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:28 PM

svinaik:

Not sure what the prices in Europe are but the prices in US for LG 65E7 is $ 2700. Please check out the following link where many sellers use the "Used as New" categorization just to get away from having to advertise the TV @ MSRP.

Are you sure? Seems too good to be true to me. Looks like it's $3500-4000 in US retail.

To be fair, that's pretty much the same as UK retail, where the LG 65E7 comes in at £3999: http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-home-entertainment/televisions/televisions/lg-oled65e7v-65-smart-4k-ultra-hd-oled-tv-10160580-pdt.html

Please don't use slightly dodgy Amazon resellers as a true "off the shelf" retail comparison.

Emil Jensen
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I dont get where you get your prices from.

The Sony 77" was announced for 20.000 dollars, plus tax I assume.

Best buy have the LG B7 at 2.999 Dollars plus tax.

 

So you are not comparing the prices right.

 

Also remember motor stand, Much better speaker, Sound processor, much better remote and much better and more expensive built.

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BeoET replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:32 PM

We have the beautiful BV5, but are now looking for an upgrade. The price for the fully equipped 65" Eclipse will be high, BUT:  Quality and timless design that makes you happy even when not in use is worth some $.

A parallel: In 2001-02 we were in the process pf buying a new sailing boat. We got offerings from many yards, and most of the offerings were "5% off", "10% off", "extra equipment for free", "15% special offer for you" etc - except from the yard Hallberg-Rassy. When I discussed any discounts with Hallberg-Rassy CEO, he said: "We don't provide discounts - we only build and provide high quality, timeless sailing yachts!" We're still very happy that we ended up with a Hallberg-Rassy :-)  And we're still very happy that we invested in the BV5, BL5, BS9k etc - the cost pr day owning these quality functional sculptures aren't that frightening, after all!

 

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svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:37 PM

moxxey:

svinaik:

Not sure what the prices in Europe are but the prices in US for LG 65E7 is $ 2700. Please check out the following link where many sellers use the "Used as New" categorization just to get away from having to advertise the TV @ MSRP.

Are you sure? Seems too good to be true to me. Looks like it's $3500-4000 in US retail.

To be fair, that's pretty much the same as UK retail, where the LG 65E7 comes in at £3999: http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/tv-and-home-entertainment/televisions/televisions/lg-oled65e7v-65-smart-4k-ultra-hd-oled-tv-10160580-pdt.html

Please don't use slightly dodgy Amazon resellers as a true "off the shelf" retail comparison.

These are not Dodgy resellers. I am speaking from personal experience as I recently bought 2 TVs LG 65C7 & LG 65E7P for my son and daughter from these guys and received them in perfect condition and brand new. No issues whatsoever. In fact the prices are going down so fast that if I had only waited 2 weeks, I would have saved $ 600 total.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:39 PM

svinaik:

These are not Dodgy resellers. I am speaking from personal experience ..

Give it a break. That's not the retail price. Quote the retail price most people would pay from retail. Not the cheapest possible price found from some Amazon reseller which may not even be a company, personal experience or not.

If you want to quote prices, compare the Eclipse against the average price most American's will pay in retail: which is around $3500 to $4000.

By "retail" I mean your average bricks and mortar store or their website.

Emil Jensen
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For the first time we get a Beovision with the latest picture tech, and the best picture performance.

 

Thats a first time. 

 

And LG is top of the line, if you look at flatpanelshd.com, you will see LG E7 with a picture score of 97% the same as Panasonic 97% and a bit shy of Sony 98%

 

You will get Dolby vision, and that is awesome and would not be realistic without LG.

 

Also remember that LOEWE is a HISENSE, so they also take advantage from a much larger company.

Remember all are working with bad software, Loewe does not have Netflix, and Sony have bad Android software.

 

I look very positive on this collaboration and think we will get the best Beovision in a long time.

Also as an investor, B&O are saving 100mio Danish Kr. every year with removing the video department, that sounds like a good deal.

Sorry for the ramble Big Smile

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svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:47 PM

Hi Folks

I am only sharing what I know to be true on a personal level purely in the spirit of sharing and helping all of us (including myself) to make an informed decision. I am as much a B&O nut (own BV9, BL5, Beosound 5, A9, A1 and Various Beoplay headphones and not to mention all the versions of their telephones).

Please accept what makes sense to you and make whatever decisions that you need to make. I am grateful that in the US we, are seeing great technology now available at very fair price (and that I could afford to buy my kids some great sets) and if the size and price of BV makes sense to me, it will be my first choice too.

65 inch Eclipse is not checking the boxes for me at this time. If Eclipse 77 comes along @ $22-25K, I am all in.....

 

 

 

 

 

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:48 PM

Emil Jensen:

Also remember that LOEWE is a HISENSE, so they also take advantage from a much larger company.

Please always get your facts right when quoting things like this as you could be libel for your words if you get your facts wrong on a public forum. For example, "we reached out to Loewe and asked if they specified more stringent criteria before accepting higher-grade OLED panels from LG Display" and their reply was "The Bild OLED uses a panel that is made by LG Display exclusively for Loewe"

Where's HiSense come from?

Emil Jensen
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Yep moxxey you are right, I should be more precise.

 

Loewe is using LG panels as all do if they want OLED, it is the only supplier.

 

But Loewe have Hisense as a strategic partner, for software and so on.

 

That was what i meant.

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 5:58 PM
Very good point about software, none are in great shape.

The loewe UI doesn't look especially great and that's before you get to the missing Netflix.

But as I've said before, there are too many variables in getting smart TV to be awesome and all encompassing, so I don't mind about missing apps and the odd external box isn't a big deal.

AngloApulian
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Emil Jensen:

Yep moxxey you are right, I should be more precise.

Loewe is using LG panels as all do if they want OLED, it is the only supplier.

But Loewe have Hisense as a strategic partner, for software and so on.

That was what i meant.

Beolab 20, Beolab 17, Transmitter 1

Not for software. Loewe develop their own software for their TVs based on a customised version of Linux which they also make available to Hisense.

The following article from Reuters outlines the partnership Loewe has with Hisense: http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-loewe-hisense-idUSBRE96U09X20130731
Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 6:08 PM
And if we're being fair in getting as close as possible to a like for like, the G7 65 is the closest parallel. That retails for close to 7K GBP.

Anyway, given I'm not a great fan of the BV7 design, the Eclipses closest relative I understand, I'll exit these discussions stage left and await the product out of general interest only. Hoping people like it.
svinaik
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svinaik replied on Mon, Aug 21 2017 8:32 PM

I have the same assessment as you on the point of design. I really think that Avant is / was a truly great design effort but never felt he same for BV7 in past. This is one of my personal reason for not being super excited about Eclipse as yet. I was almost expecting B&O to retain the Avant design aspects for the motorized sound bar 

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pjk561 replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 3:24 AM

I too think the Avant is a great design. Two and a half years ago I replaced my sound sound processor, SSP, with a Beosystem 4  and a Transmitter1 with a number of Receiver1s (I was already using B&O speakers). My B&O rep thought I might want to get an Avant instead but I wanted the flexibility of a separate SSP, as I had heard about the new OLEDs coming to market. So I used my old HD CRT tube TV till last month when I bought a Sony A1E. I knew a new B&O OLED TV was being developed but suspecting B&O pricing would be extremely high I went with the Sony. I'm happy with my decision. The Beosystem 4 works quite well with the Sony TV as well as with a new Oppo UDP-203..

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Interestingly When B&o released a TV without the latest specs it is reasonable to say that I have read most people would have been prepared to go with a TV from another Brand.

Now B&O will release a TV from another brand which most would have bought anyway however it can connect to B&O speakers without a separate AV receiver and have some design nous.

Isn't that what we wanted ?

Even though a lot (what I am reading) of this is speculation until it's released.

Interesting times ahead.
Aussie Michael
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pjk561:

I too think the Avant is a great design. Two and a half years ago I replaced my sound sound processor, SSP, with a Beosystem 4 and a Transmitter1 with a number of Receiver1s (I was already using B&O speakers). My B&O rep thought I might want to get an Avant instead but I wanted the flexibility of a separate SSP, as I had heard about the new OLEDs coming to market. So I used my old HD CRT tube TV till last month when I bought a Sony A1E. I knew a new B&O OLED TV was being developed but suspecting B&O pricing would be extremely high I went with the Sony. I'm happy with my decision. The Beosystem 4 works quite well with the Sony TV as well as with a new Oppo UDP-203..

It's a lovely TV. I bet you're happy.
Peter Pan
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Peter Pan replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 8:11 AM

On August 30th, Bang & Olufsen will be holding a press conference in Berlin.
We are, of course, on the spot again and will visit B&O's stand! - Read here.

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moxxey replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 11:19 AM

Peter Pan:

On August 30th, Bang & Olufsen will be holding a press conference in Berlin.
We are, of course, on the spot again and will visit B&O's stand! - Read here.

That is the worst mockup I've ever seen. Is it supposed to be a joke?

And what's the point of linking to a German-only website?

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andy_js replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 1:17 PM

Etwas volk kann spreche Deutsch.

(please forgive me native speakers)

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vlohjr1 replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 8:12 PM
pjk561:

I too think the Avant is a great design. Two and a half years ago I replaced my sound sound processor, SSP, with a Beosystem 4 and a Transmitter1 with a number of Receiver1s (I was already using B&O speakers). My B&O rep thought I might want to get an Avant instead but I wanted the flexibility of a separate SSP, as I had heard about the new OLEDs coming to market. So I used my old HD CRT tube TV till last month when I bought a Sony A1E. I knew a new B&O OLED TV was being developed but suspecting B&O pricing would be extremely high I went with the Sony. I'm happy with my decision. The Beosystem 4 works quite well with the Sony TV as well as with a new Oppo UDP-203..

Interesting does the hdmi bs4 compatible with 4k?

Thanks

Vince
pjk561
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pjk561 replied on Tue, Aug 22 2017 10:48 PM

No, the Beosystem 4 is not compatible with 4K but the OPPO UDP-203 has an Audio Out only HDMI port which you can connect  to an HDMI input port on the Beosystem 4 for sound. The OPPO UDP-203 has a separate HDMI output that provides 4K UHD video to the TV. The Beosystem 4 HDMI output is connected to the TV as well. It handles all my other non-4K equipment (OPPO BDP-83 and a DVR) and provides a 1080p output to the TV.

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Rombeek replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 8:51 AM

Do you have to use 3 remote's: B&O (beosystem 4), Sony (TV) and Oppo?

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I guess only 2 - if the OPPO 203 is PUC'ed, there is no need for the original remote.

Anyway the SONY has to be turned on and the input/OPPO-picture must be choosen.

Do you have a center speaker/BeoLab? 

Does that mean, that you use the SONY as a monitor only, or?

How about the internal apps on the SONY - how do you get sound from those on the BSys4?

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 1:11 PM

my guess is he doesn't use the Sony smart apps, but probably those on something connected to the OPP 203.

From what i understand, the 203 doesn't have any built in streaming anymore, but can handle a streaming box connected to it.

Interested as to what the answer is of course......

Millemissen
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Sandyb:

Interested as to what the answer is of course......

Yes!

But wouldn't that be a mess of controlling?

It certainly does not seem like the simplicity of remote controlling, that I like with a B&O setup.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 1:18 PM

i couldn't not agree more....one remote is very much a first world problem i concede, but one that does make day to day life quite pleasant (especially when switching between the tennis and the golf of course!)

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pjk561 replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 7:36 PM

No,  I actually have a 15 year old Pronto TSU1000 that can operate all 3. I'm expecting to replace the Pronto with a new Neeo. I've also had an IR distribution system for years that feeds the IR to where I have my video components although for the Beosystem 4 I have a separate B&O IR receiver that plugs into a wall port, behind the TV, connected to a separate Cat6 cable I had previously run through the walls, back to the video components area. and into the Beosystem 4. When I bought the Beosystem 4 I had hoped to reuse an AV7000 IR receiver that was already installed into a wall but it didn't work out. I may try again as I think I can make an adapter plug since I now have printouts of the wiring.

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pjk561 replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 7:49 PM

Millemissen:

I guess only 2 - if the OPPO 203 is PUC'ed, there is no need for the original remote.

Anyway the SONY has to be turned on and the input/OPPO-picture must be choosen.

Do you have a center speaker/BeoLab? 

Does that mean, that you use the SONY as a monitor only, or?

How about the internal apps on the SONY - how do you get sound from those on the BSys4?

MM

 

I do have a BL4000 for center. I primarily use the Sony as a monitor but when I was pulling new HDMI cabling I pulled out my old optical cable as well as the old HDMI. If I had left the optical in I'm sure I could have figured a way to connect it to the Beosystem 4. Right now internal apps on the Sony default to the internal speakers which are the ones build into the acoustic panel of the screen. They are not bad but certainly not B&O sound. The Sony TV did the default without any action on my part.

I rarely use the internal apps so it hasn't been an issue. I primarily use the two Oppos and the ChannelMaster DVR+ as my primary video sources and they are feed into the Beosystem 4.

 

 

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Weebyx replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 7:57 PM

pjk561:

No,  I actually have a 15 year old Pronto TSU1000 that can operate all 3. I'm expecting to replace the Pronto with a new Neeo.

Why not use a Beo5 or Beo6 ;)

It can control all of them, just like your Pronto..

/Jacob

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pjk561 replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 7:57 PM

Sandyb:

my guess is he doesn't use the Sony smart apps, but probably those on something connected to the OPP 203.

From what i understand, the 203 doesn't have any built in streaming anymore, but can handle a streaming box connected to it.

Interested as to what the answer is of course......

 

You can stream from a local NAS or other DNLA sources directly through the Oppo but I don't have a NAS. I could attach a ROKU Premium + box  with a 4K switch along with an HDFury Vertex to strip HDMI audio (I've already purchased a Vertex, which I haven't received it as yet) or use an HDFury AVR-Key. One other possibility is to plug the Roku into the HDMI in port of the Oppo. Right now Oppo's HDMI in port has certain issues that Oppo is working on.

 

pjk561
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pjk561 replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 8:20 PM

Weebyx:

pjk561:

No,  I actually have a 15 year old Pronto TSU1000 that can operate all 3. I'm expecting to replace the Pronto with a new Neeo.

Why not use a Beo5 or Beo6 ;)

It can control all of them, just like your Pronto..

/Jacob

 

I've been a patient NEEO Kickstarter supporter for several years now. We'll see how that works out. They just sent out notice they are beginning to ship to their Kickstarter supporters.

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Sure you can do much, if you know howto and are willing to make 'some' compromises.

However, I am convinced that the B&O guys have done their utmost to make the LG/BV (the Eclipse) act like a true BV, when it comes to the handling.

But - unfortunately we still don't really know...yet!

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Beofan2 replied on Wed, Aug 23 2017 10:24 PM

In less than a week we all know a lot more facts about Eclipse. Spoke with my dealer today. He recieves Eclipse next wednesday. I will make my final judgement then but I´m excited from what I`ve learnt so far.

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