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Beogram 400x projects

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Søren Mexico
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top job John, and thank you for an interesting thread, your pins will go out tomorrow or latest Monday. Happy new Year

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Fri, Jan 2 2015 2:34 AM

Cool, thanks Søren. 
I am following your nice M-70 thread.  Those are going to sound great when you are finished.

I figured it would be nice to have a thread to group a bunch of adjustments and fixes for the 400x series of turntables. They are amazing machines and I am even more impressed with them after going through these repairs.

hamacbleu
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Congrats.. gorgeous.

Don't you want to remove the sticker above the control panel ?

It's amazing how these kind of threads, full of photos, can be useful, even for projects that are unrelated to the specific topic. Just to see how the thing is build inside. Just to see some particular construction details. Many people around here do it. Thanks to all. A classification of threads by models or family, on the forum, including the archived forum, might be useful, regardless if it's workbench, vintage etc.

Guillaume

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sonavor replied on Fri, Jan 2 2015 5:42 PM

hamacbleu:
.

Don't you want to remove the sticker above the control panel ?

Guillaume



Haha....That sticker has been on that turntable for 38 years now.  I figure I'll just leave it on there.  The company I bought it from is long gone now.  I guess someone will eventually remove it once I am gone and my audio collection gets dispersed. :)

You are the first person that has ever noticed it being there.  Good eye for detail Guillaume.

Beolover
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Hi John,

Absolutely beautiful thread! It will be very useful when I finally get to my BG6000! I am a bit confused with regard to the versions after studying your pictures, though. What is the main difference between the 5523 and the 5513 versions? It seems that your 5523 pics look very similar to what I found in the 5513 that I just 'futurized'. Another version question would be the difference between the 5501/02 versions and the 03 version that you are showing...are there any, or is this just US vs. European versions?

Thanks! Keep up your excellent work!

Rudy

http://beolover.blogspot.com

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Leslie
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Leslie replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 5:58 AM

sonavor:

hamacbleu:
.

Don't you want to remove the sticker above the control panel ?

Guillaume



Haha....That sticker has been on that turntable for 38 years now.  I figure I'll just leave it on there.  The company I bought it from is long gone now.  I guess someone will eventually remove it once I am gone and my audio collection gets dispersed. :)

You are the first person that has ever noticed it being there.  Good eye for detail Guillaume.

 

 

Talking about details John,  one picture shows type 5503 Beogram 4001?

Brengen & Ophalen

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 8:05 AM

Beolover:

What is the main difference between the 5523 and the 5513 versions? It seems that your 5523 pics look very similar to what I found in the 5513 that I just 'futurized'. Another version question would be the difference between the 5501/02 versions and the 03 version that you are showing...are there any, or is this just US vs. European versions?

Rudy

I have the original service manual for the 5513 but it has a supplement section that covers the 5523 and 5526 (BG4004).  From what I can tell, the 5523 is pretty much the same as the 5513 except it appears to be made for people that wanted a B&O turntable for their non-B&O systems. So the 5523 was outfitted with RCA cables instead of the usual DIN.  Of course B&O made an adapter for the DIN plugs to RCA as well. My guess is they wanted to have a model available to the audiophiles that wouldn't like an adapter. The 5523 may have just been for the US market. 

On my 5503, it definitely is just for the US market as the voltage selection switch isn't really hooked up. The 5503 is fixed at 117 VAC. From the 5501 and 5502 service manual though, it appears some early models (maybe the 5501) had the mechanism from the BG4000 for the tonearm position switches. There is an adjustment procedure for that in the manual but the 5503 has a position mechanism similar to the 4002.

It is interesting to see the evolution of the B&O linear turntable from the 4000 to the 4004.  I should receive my first BG4000 this week (hopefully intact).

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 8:22 AM

Leslie:


Talking about details John,  one picture shows type 5503 Beogram 4001?



Thanks Leslie. I must have looked at that photo a dozen times and the 4001 didn't register.

I have corrected the image and edited the first post.  Let me know if any other information is wrong and I will get it corrected.

chartz
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chartz replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 10:02 AM

About the platter's height on my BG4000, I came to the conclusion that respecting the 13mm height cannot make the platter flush with the big panel. And since the latter is not machined, only stamped through, it looks kind of awful...

The SM makes it clear that both conditions should be respected, which is impossible.

So I decided on the flush platter, at the expense of cartridge height, which is now set at 12 mm.

Jacques

hamacbleu
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sonavor:

Beolover:

What is the main difference between the 5523 and the 5513 versions? It seems that your 5523 pics look very similar to what I found in the 5513 that I just 'futurized'. Another version question would be the difference between the 5501/02 versions and the 03 version that you are showing...are there any, or is this just US vs. European versions?

Rudy

 

I have the original service manual for the 5513 but it has a supplement section that covers the 5523 and 5526 (BG4004).  From what I can tell, the 5523 is pretty much the same as the 5513 except it appears to be made for people that wanted a B&O turntable for their non-B&O systems. So the 5523 was outfitted with RCA cables instead of the usual DIN.  Of course B&O made an adapter for the DIN plugs to RCA as well. My guess is they wanted to have a model available to the audiophiles that wouldn't like an adapter. The 5523 may have just been for the US market. 

On my 5503, it definitely is just for the US market as the voltage selection switch isn't really hooked up. The 5503 is fixed at 117 VAC. From the 5501 and 5502 service manual though, it appears some early models (maybe the 5501) had the mechanism from the BG4000 for the tonearm position switches. There is an adjustment procedure for that in the manual but the 5503 has a position mechanism similar to the 4002.

It is interesting to see the evolution of the B&O linear turntable from the 4000 to the 4004.  I should receive my first BG4000 this week (hopefully intact).

Based solely on observations, I came to these conclusions:

-All three 55x3 versions of the Beogram 4002 were made for the American market and has a fixed 117 VAC transformer

Then, if you replace x by:

0: AC version with the same big and heavy subplatter as the Beogram 4000. This version can be converted to CD4.

1: DC version with the late platter and DIN plug. This version can be converted to CD4.

2: DC version with the late platter and RCA plug. This version cannot be converted to CD4.

Guillaume

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 2:57 PM

chartz:

About the platter's height on my BG4000, I came to the conclusion that respecting the 13mm height cannot make the platter flush with the big panel. And since the latter is not machined, only stamped through, it looks kind of awful...

The SM makes it clear that both conditions should be respected, which is impossible.

So I decided on the flush platter, at the expense of cartridge height, which is now set at 12 mm.



Interesting about the 13mm height setting on the Beogram 4000.  The service manual shows that measurement from the platter surface to the bottom of the detector arm.  When the 4002 (and later) came out, that service manual procedure was changed to make the adjustment where the distance is 23mm ....but from the platter surface to the top of the detector arm.

On my 4002 type 5523, the platter height was the most time consuming. Especially the latter part of getting the turntable platter level with the deck (big panel).

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 3:22 PM

Another thing about the platter to arm height adjustment...
I think the more important thing is the platter surface to arm height. That is because that affects the tonearm (and stylus) touching a vinyl record.
The platter surface to the turntable deck is for cosmetic reasons and doesn't really affect the turntable performance.  However, I also would not be happy with the adjustment results if the platter wasn't level with the deck. 

Leslie
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Leslie replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 5:41 PM

No John, the rest is ok. Your thread is so interesting but got a little confused about both typenumbers. Lots of things learned. Keep up the good work!

Brengen & Ophalen

chartz
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chartz replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 6:14 PM

sonavor:
Interesting about the 13mm height setting on the Beogram 4000.  The service manual shows that measurement from the platter surface to the bottom of the detector arm.  When the 4002 (and later) came out, that service manual procedure was changed to make the adjustment where the distance is 23mm ....but from the platter surface to the top of the detector arm

Indeed. I have settled to 22 mm to have the platter flush. The detector arm is 10 mm high!

 

Jacques

ethuijs
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ethuijs replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 6:58 PM

I have a question about lubrication of the spindle that transports the arm? Just use sewing machine oil or something else?

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 7:19 PM

The Beogram 4000 service manual says to use Everyman Oil (3984211) for the spindle.
The Beogram 4002, type 5501-5503 service manual says to use Rocol MTS 1000 diluted to oily viscosity with ESSO Nuto H 44.
The Beogram 4002, type 5513 service manual says pretty much the same thing as the 5501-5503 service manual.

Lately I have been using a light oil called Tri-Flow Superior Lubricant but there are a lot of good, light, synthetic oils available. I have also used this oil before.

RasmusOe
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I have a question regarding replacemnet of capacitors.

Would any capacitor with the right capacitance, voltage rates and heat rates be good enough? Are there other factors i have to consider? 

I'm studying electro/electrical engineering and am really eager to learn about music/sound production (4th semester). 

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 9:58 PM

RasmusOe:

I have a question regarding replacemnet of capacitors.

Would any capacitor with the right capacitance, voltage rates and heat rates be good enough? Are there other factors i have to consider? 



You can run into some heated arguments on the audio forums when it comes to capacitor replacement.  These 400x series turntables are all around 40+ years old. There are a number of electrolytic type capacitors that are likely near the end of their life.  However, in my repairs, most of the capacitors tested out good. I still usually replace them though because I already have the units open for restoration and I don't want to go back in later. On the small, red, teardrop type capacitors (the tantalums), only a couple of those were out of tolerance. Beoworld member Menahem and some others like replacing those smaller value caps with WIMA polyester caps (non-polar).  Other Beoworld members will argue the tantalums should be left alone or (if out of tolerance), replaced with new tantalums. You will find arguments for both options. When in doubt, you can't go wrong by replacing the old component with a new equivalent.  The original engineers knew what they were doing so matching what they originally chose is always a good choice I think. On these 400x turntables though, I do like changing the smaller caps out with non-polar WIMA polyesters. 

About voltage and polarity - You can't go down in voltage rating but you can go up. I generally try to match the existing voltage rating if I can.  The tantalums and most of the electrolytic capacitors are polarized so you have to mount those in the correct direction. Be careful though, a few electrolytic caps in the circuit might be non-polar type so the replacement must also be non-polar.

Other factors about the electrolytic replacement capacitors are the characteristics of the type. Manufacturers sell special, audio rated caps as well as caps for other characteristics. In the Beogram 4002 turntable, none of the caps are in the audio signal path.  The turntable audio signal goes from the cartridge and out of the turntable through a muting relay.  No other circuitry is involved unless you have a Beogram 6000 with the on-board RIAA amplifier.  For my 4002 restorations I didn't use any audio quality electrolytic caps (unless they were a good fit physically).  I used some Nichicon (BT, PW, etc) and Panasonic FM types looking for high reliability and low impedance.

Another factor in the restoration is the physical size of the replacement component.

RasmusOe
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RasmusOe replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 10:12 PM

Thank you, that's very helpful! I was wondoring if I wanted to do a full repair my 6500 system (i bought a kit for the beogram cd), but maybe i'll give it a shot. 

It is about 30 years old (though working) but i guess it wouldn't hurt to fix it with new components for stability. Well if i get the time i guess i will take it to the Lab. Big Smile

 

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Jan 5 2015 10:30 PM

There is also an old saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
For a component that is working well, I don't mess with it until something does start acting up. When there is a maintenance reason to go into it, then I usually decide to replace old parts.  Another case is when you acquire an audio component from someone that has been in storage for a while. That could be a good reason to open it up and do some maintenance (and restoration).

I have a Sansui AU9500 integrated amplifier that I acquired from the original owner a couple of years ago.  It was still working fine so I left it alone.  Last year it finally started failing so that is when I opened it up and replaced all of the capacitors. Now it is working like new again.
Currently, I have a Beomaster 4400 that is all original. It still works beautifully. I am prepared to restore it but I am not going to mess with it until I have to.

sonavor
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My Beogram 4000 finally arrived. The packing was just good enough to allow it to arrive without any shipping damage. A little surprising when looking at the box.


sonavor
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This turntable is not in a working state. I bought it knowing that it would have to be a restoration project. I was just praying that it would arrive in one piece and that all of the parts are intact. So far so good.


sonavor
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Here is a full picture. As expected, the basic layout is very similar to the 4002 and 4004 series. The main circuit board is in the same place but is a different shape (similar size though).


sonavor
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This turntable has a European plug and RCA phono plugs.  I'll have to follow the service manual and convert the voltage to 120V, 60Hz.  The manual mentions an adjustment so the strobe (for speed) works correctly.  You can see that at some point in its life someone decided to repaint the original Rosewood trim with a white lacquer paint job. Fortunately I have a mint condition Beogram rosewood trim piece I can switch out.


sonavor
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The dust cover is in good shape. It doesn't appear to have any cracks or chips. It does have scratches but I expect that. The condition of this cover is way better than my two BG4002 Type 5503 units.


sonavor
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The turntable platter is in superb condition. The bottom has strobe markings that the Beogram 4002 types don't have.


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sonavor replied on Fri, Jan 9 2015 7:04 PM

While I was waiting for this turntable to arrive I started a couple of Beogram 8002 restorations. So I will need to finish those up before I start on the restoration of this Beogram 4000.  I am really looking forward to it and hope the result is a working turntable for my collection.

sonavor
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I found a nice little, soft cover book published by B&O in September, 1975. It is titled "Beogram 4002 Design Story" and is 34 pages, single sided. The booklet talks about design considerations in producing a record playing system so it covers the design of the phono cartridge as well as the turntable. There is information about the choice of linear tracking of course as well as the selection of belt drive versus direct drive. 


chartz
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chartz replied on Tue, Jan 13 2015 6:38 AM

Good luck on that one John!

They are a bit more complicated (sophisticated?) than the later ones you will see, being equipped with the first gen. logic chips made available. The online manual is excellent and the fault-finding section is quite unique. 

My favourite turntable from B&O.

Jacques

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sonavor replied on Wed, Jan 14 2015 7:04 AM

chartz:

Good luck on that one John! 



Thanks Jacques.  But I know that you guys will be there to support me as I go through it.  That is very comforting when tackling these projects.

sonavor
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I wrapped up my last Beogram 8002 restoration last weekend and I have been enjoying listening to it for a day now.  Of course the Beogram 8002 sounds great.  I cleaned off my workbench (and the floor) in preparation for the Beogram 4000 project.  This is an exciting project for me as it is a Beogram I have been trying to find for quite a while.  They just don't come up for sale in the USA very often.  This one came from Germany.

My Beogram 4000 is in a non-working state. The seller told me that was the case and that they did a little work on it but couldn't get the turntable to work.  The price was right so I took over the project.  I am hoping all the pieces are here and my initial inventory of the Beogram seems to indicate that is the case.  The previous owner did some changes with the two 2000uF axial capacitors (0C1 & 0C2) on the chassis.  The 0C1 & 0C2 capacitors they replaced were included in the shipment.  Only one of them was original though.  I plan on recapping those anyway. 

Here is the first picture of the Beogram power supply you can see some masking tape on the previous repair attempt.


sonavor
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Removing the tape exposes a couple of splices and the wiring connections for the two replacement, 0C1 & 0C2 caps.


sonavor
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This is where the original 0C1 & 0C2 would have gone.


sonavor
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Here are the two wire splices with the tape removed.


sonavor
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Here are the 0C3 & 0C4, 3000uF capacitors that connect to transistor 0TR1, the 24VDC zener (0D2) and the 680 ohms, 1W resistor (0R1).


sonavor
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Here is 0TR1 from the underside of the Beogram 4000 chassis.


sonavor
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Even though I am a long ways from applying power, I went ahead and switched the voltage to 130V.


sonavor
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Surveying the Beogram for capacitor replacement candidates, here is the trace side of the 8009012 board.  There is one tantalum capacitor there. The service manual doesn't really show that capacitor clearly but  I believe it is 0.1uF ... I will measure it later. 


sonavor
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Here is the 8009012 component side.


sonavor
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The Beogram 4000 bearing assembly will require the same adjustment procedure check as I made on the Beogram 4002 decks but the physical size of the bearing assembly looks a little different in this original series turntable.


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