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BeoVox 2600 Refurbishment

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Søren Mexico
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Last answer 3 times server time out, and the pic cropped, in the old forum the pics wasn't cropped, slowly I get tired of this.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Evan
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Evan replied on Tue, May 1 2012 4:26 PM
One thing I didn't think about (until someone mentioned it a while back) was that polypropylene caps do not degrade like electrolytic caps, so the investment may be worth it if you like the speakers enough.

I think my next recap project will be my BeoLab 5000's. Following those will likely be the S45-2's. I think poly caps will be the way to go for these as I don't see myself getting rid of either set EVAR.

Beo4 'til I die!

Rich
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Rich replied on Tue, May 1 2012 4:45 PM

Evan:
One thing I didn't think about (until someone mentioned it a while back) was that polypropylene caps do not degrade like electrolytic caps, so the investment may be worth it if you like the speakers enough.

I think my next recap project will be my BeoLab 5000's. Following those will likely be the S45-2's. I think poly caps will be the way to go for these as I don't see myself getting rid of either set EVAR.

With my first pair of M70s, I was hoping to rebuild a pair of speakers that would become my main set for daily, serious listening for many, many years to come.  And have fun with them, as well (see fret fabric choice in avatar).  I had only spent $50 in acquiring them, so it was easy to shell out significant coin in refurbing them.

Will I do it again?  Probably not.

Am I glad I did once?  Certainly.

As for my S45-2s, they sound fantastic with Martin's electrolytic kit.  I wouldn't change them for anything.  But I used Solen in my CX50s and S40s.

My point (I guess):  there's more than one way to skin a cat.


Jeff
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Jeff replied on Tue, May 1 2012 5:32 PM

One of the reasons film caps often sound "different" than electrolytics when you are doing a crossover upgrade like this is that film caps tend to have less insertion loss than lytics. No cap is a perfect capacitor, they all have series resistance and even small amounts of inductance depending on the construction and material used. Film caps usually have less series resistance, and less insertion loss.

What this can mean depends on the crossover involved and how sensitive the speaker is to differences in level. It's not unusual, however, to have the tweeter output a measurable and audible amount hotter (more output) after upgrading to film caps. I suspect a lot of the ramblings by people about how much more detailed the speakers sounded after a cap upgrade is due to more high frequency output.

Ideally you'd know the difference and insert a resistance or alter the l-pad to rematch the tweeter level to what was originally designed. Usually, however, it isn't enough to make a huge difference, and your ears will adapt to any difference, but if they sound too bright afterwards this is usually the reason.

Jeff

I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus. Sad

Evan
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Evan replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 6:08 PM

Well everyone, it's been a while since I've said anything about these and it's time for an update.

I was enjoying the sound of these speakers immensely and for a long time until, like almost all of my Beo, started acting up.

My left channel woofer has a rattle. My patience for breaking Beo is running out. I'm not going to be fixing these any time soon since I've already exceeded their value in purchase + repairs. I'll dig up the woofer/part no. and post it do if any of you have one I can buy it. Other than that, these things are going into storage.

Moving on to my S45-2s.

Beo4 'til I die!

Rich
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Rich replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 6:39 PM

Sorry to hear about your problem.  That sucks.

I assume your definition of "value" is essentially "what someone would pay me for them."  If that were the definition of value, my M70s probably have a value of $100.  I would have zero chance of replacing them with anything that sounded as good for that kind of money.

I have recently brought into the house more sets of speakers (much to the chagrin of my wife), and the more I swap in different things, the more happy I am with the M70s when its their turn to play again.

My point?  I don't know.  But maybe you should do what I did with my BC5000 (1970's) when I got frustrated.  Just put it in the attic for awhile until it starts calling your name again.

PS  S45-2s rule, as you know, so all will be well.

PPS  How's the vinyl going?


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Dillen replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 6:41 PM

Most likely one of the rivets that holds the black and red solder tags came lose and worked
its way up the flexible wire.
An easy fix in the given case.

Martin

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sonavor replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 7:07 PM

Hi Evan,

Sorry to hear about the speaker problem.  Don't get discouraged though.  It's kind of the price (or dues) we pay in order to keep vintage audio equipment alive and kicking.  In the end it is worth it.  Sometimes the repairs/refurbishments will go beyond the recaps and refoaming into areas we didn't expect.  As Rich suggested, sometimes it is good to put a project away for a while until you recharge with the desire to work on it again.  I've had a few of those projects.  When you do get back to these I would test the speaker with a signal generator and verify a frequency you can hear the rattle at.  Once you have done that, pull the woofer and connect it to the generator outside the box and see if you still have the rattle (hopefully you will).  From there you should be able to find the place on the driver that is the source.  As Dillen said, it is likely a rivet.

I recently had a project on a 1976 era amplifier where I did a complete recap.  Everything looked really good but the amp had a bad hum in the outputs.  Voltages all looked good...frustrating.  I put the amp away for two months while I worked on other things (like the Beovox MS150 project).  After thinking about it I decided to go back through the old amp and resolder all of the solder joints (especially the wire connections).  With the rework done, the amp works beautifully.  The old amp had needed more than just the electrolytic caps replacement. The job ended up being a lot more than I planned for but really enjoyable now that it is complete.

-sonavor

Søren Mexico
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We are back, Sonavor, Rich, Dillen, Evan and all in the same thread.

Evan, listen to Rich and John, and Dillens good advise, put the speakers in the attic and go back to them when you feel for it, there is nothing we cannot do. And as you see we are still here to help.

My BG 1202 should arrive Tuesday next week, together with a pair of Bvox 1600, bought from Martin, cant wait to get going again, will try to make threads but with photos on an other server, here it is just to much work.

 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Evan
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Evan replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 5:59 PM

Rich:

Sorry to hear about your problem.  That sucks.

I assume your definition of "value" is essentially "what someone would pay me for them."  If that were the definition of value, my M70s probably have a value of $100.  I would have zero chance of replacing them with anything that sounded as good for that kind of money.

I have recently brought into the house more sets of speakers (much to the chagrin of my wife), and the more I swap in different things, the more happy I am with the M70s when its their turn to play again.

My point?  I don't know.  But maybe you should do what I did with my BC5000 (1970's) when I got frustrated.  Just put it in the attic for awhile until it starts calling your name again.

PS  S45-2s rule, as you know, so all will be well.

PPS  How's the vinyl going?

Yea, I'm not a happy camper.

Let's see, I paid $64 to the original owner almost two years ago. The caps, as mentioned before, were $34.46. Totaling $98.46. I have been watching eBay listings and I don't think I have seen even a single pair sell - at all. To be honest, none of this really bothers me - I just want to listen to my music!

Like your wife, my parents are forced to endure this hobby of mine. I have an abundance of speakers across several brands. However, nothing can touch my Beo in terms of pure listening pleasure.

The 2600's will have no choice but to sit in time-out for a little while. I am moving out of the house (finally) in less than two weeks and have not been able to give my Beo the attention it clearly demands. Between managing a formula team and working a full time job I haven't been able to keep up with any of it.

I am, however, excited for the S45-2 project. They will be paired with my 4500, a combination not yet heard by these ears.

The vinyl has taken a turn for the worse unfortunately. Yep - you guessed it, my turntable is now acting up. I'll save that for my 1202 thread and another day. The good news is, my vinyl collection is expanding Smile

Beo4 'til I die!

Evan
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Evan replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 6:01 PM

Dillen:

Most likely one of the rivets that holds the black and red solder tags came lose and worked
its way up the flexible wire.
An easy fix in the given case.

Martin,

I would be OVERJOYED to discover a rattling rivet! I will have to investigate when I have a chance.

Beo4 'til I die!

Søren Mexico
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Sorry to hear about your troubles, but on Tuesday I will get my BG 1202, its the EU 50 Hz version, so I'm in for a big job there, I will strip it down in detail and do a throughout restoration and make a mechanical conversion 50 to 60 Hz, hopefully this will be possible by alternating the belt drive wheel, of course all the mechanics will be checked and if necessary, brought back to original state, one of the biggest problems will be the belt, the belt drive wheel will be 20% less in diameter, so the belt will have to be shorter, but shortening the belt and vulcanizing (glue ?) maybe can be the solution, Will be back with more.     

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Evan
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Evan replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 6:22 PM

sonavor:

Hi Evan,

Sorry to hear about the speaker problem.  Don't get discouraged though.  It's kind of the price (or dues) we pay in order to keep vintage audio equipment alive and kicking.  In the end it is worth it.  Sometimes the repairs/refurbishments will go beyond the recaps and refoaming into areas we didn't expect.  As Rich suggested, sometimes it is good to put a project away for a while until you recharge with the desire to work on it again.  I've had a few of those projects.  When you do get back to these I would test the speaker with a signal generator and verify a frequency you can hear the rattle at.  Once you have done that, pull the woofer and connect it to the generator outside the box and see if you still have the rattle (hopefully you will).  From there you should be able to find the place on the driver that is the source.  As Dillen said, it is likely a rivet.

I recently had a project on a 1976 era amplifier where I did a complete recap.  Everything looked really good but the amp had a bad hum in the outputs.  Voltages all looked good...frustrating.  I put the amp away for two months while I worked on other things (like the Beovox MS150 project).  After thinking about it I decided to go back through the old amp and resolder all of the solder joints (especially the wire connections).  With the rework done, the amp works beautifully.  The old amp had needed more than just the electrolytic caps replacement. The job ended up being a lot more than I planned for but really enjoyable now that it is complete.

-sonavor

Thanks for the advice, I am not giving up, although I will admit there were times I came close to just 'forgetting it' and buying all new gear.

Long ago when this symptom arose, I did have the sense to check it with a tone sweep. If I remember correctly, the rattle's sweet spot was around 300Hz.

The real challenge will be getting my 3000-2 back to good health. While it operates fine now, none of lamps work, I have not changed the trimmers and a bunch of other parts I have waiting to put in are still on the workbench. I have some big plans for this... Details coming to a thread near you!

Yes - thumbs up

Beo4 'til I die!

Evan
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Evan replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 6:28 PM

Søren Mexico:

We are back, Sonavor, Rich, Dillen, Evan and all in the same thread.

Evan, listen to Rich and John, and Dillens good advise, put the speakers in the attic and go back to them when you feel for it, there is nothing we cannot do. And as you see we are still here to help.

My BG 1202 should arrive Tuesday next week, together with a pair of Bvox 1600, bought from Martin, cant wait to get going again, will try to make threads but with photos on an other server, here it is just to much work.

Indeed, very good to see the gang all back together in one place.

The 2600's were always destined to be a set of 'B' speakers if you know what I mean. There to be backups during repair of my other gear. There is only so much headphone listening I can do.

I would love to see some threads Søren, the 1600 looks very interesting. 

Beo4 'til I die!

Evan
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Evan replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 6:48 PM

Søren Mexico:

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but on Tuesday I will get my BG 1202, its the EU 50 Hz version, so I'm in for a big job there, I will strip it down in detail and do a throughout restoration and make a mechanical conversion 50 to 60 Hz, hopefully this will be possible by alternating the belt drive wheel, of course all the mechanics will be checked and if necessary, brought back to original state, one of the biggest problems will be the belt, the belt drive wheel will be 20% less in diameter, so the belt will have to be shorter, but shortening the belt and vulcanizing (glue ?) maybe can be the solution, Will be back with more.     

I CAN NOT WAIT to see a thread on this Søren! Really looking forward to it.

Is the reduction exactly 20%? I will have to make a CAD model of my pulley and post it for you. I have access to metal lathes and would love to help you!!

Might as well start your thread now, this is getting serious!

Beo4 'til I die!

Søren Mexico
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Evan:

Is the reduction exactly 20%? I will have to make a CAD model of my pulley and post it for you. I have access to metal lathes and would love to help you!!

Might as well start your thread now, this is getting serious!

60-50=10=20 %, I'll wait until I have the deck here, but if I can do it, it will be done, got my own lathe in the workshop. The electric part do not look too difficult, so thumps up.

 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Dillen
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Dillen replied on Sun, Jun 17 2012 9:52 PM

Evan:

Dillen:

Most likely one of the rivets that holds the black and red solder tags came lose and worked
its way up the flexible wire.
An easy fix in the given case.

Martin,

I would be OVERJOYED to discover a rattling rivet! I will have to investigate when I have a chance.

Or a wire is touching the cone from inside.

Martin

Søren Mexico
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Dillen:

Or a wire is touching the cone from inside.

Martin

With the experience of Martin, what can go wrong, I get more and more impressed, I am very experienced in my kind of work, but I don't reach Martin to the knees.

 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Menahem Yachad
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Soren

I have a parts 1203, and that has an AC motor. I do not remember seeing any kind of transformer inside. Even the relay is a high voltage unit..

Martin may correct me if I'm mistaken, but you may have no option other than to use an external 220/110VAC stepdown transformer. Won't need to be very powerful though - probably a 50-100VA might be sufficient.

On the last one I restored, I had to send the idler wheel to Terry's Rubber Rollers for a rebuild. He did a great job.

The speed is adjustable, and that's probably all that you'll need to do to compensate for the phase difference.

Menahem

Søren Mexico
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Menahem Yachad:

Soren

I have a parts 1203, and that has an AC motor. I do not remember seeing any kind of transformer inside. Even the relay is a high voltage unit..

Martin may correct me if I'm mistaken, but you may have no option other than to use an external 220/110VAC stepdown transformer. Won't need to be very powerful though - probably a 50-100VA might be sufficient.

On the last one I restored, I had to send the idler wheel to Terry's Rubber Rollers for a rebuild. He did a great job.

The speed is adjustable, and that's probably all that you'll need to do to compensate for the phase difference.

Menahem

Looking at the diagram from the 1202, I think the 110/220 is managed over the field windings in the motor, The cone on the motor shaft has an outer diameter of, 6 Mm. biggest, and 5.3 Mm. smallest, a difference of 0.7 Mm, to reduce the speed with 20 % the difference should be at least 1.2 Mm. if at 50 HZ the speed adjust was correct at 6 Mm (max. adjust) So its a no go, I could reduce the cone by 1.2 Mm and maybe get there, but as the idler wheel mechanics (in/out movement) is fixed I would lose 0.6 Mm. in the distance between the cone and idler wheel. My biggest problem will be to get a belt to fit. But this is fun, I never made anything small as this in my lathe and I love mechanics.

 

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

tournedos
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tournedos replied on Sun, Jun 24 2012 3:41 PM

Søren Mexico:
I could reduce the cone by 1.2 Mm and maybe get there, but as the idler wheel mechanics (in/out movement) is fixed I would lose 0.6 Mm. in the distance between the cone and idler wheel. My biggest problem will be to get a belt to fit. But this is fun, I never made anything small as this in my lathe and I love mechanics.

How about using a belt that is decidedly longer, and adding an adjustable pulley somewhere to set the correct tension?

--mika

Søren Mexico
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tournedos:
How about using a belt that is decidedly longer, and adding an adjustable pulley somewhere to set the correct tension?

A good idea, but check the thread, its working now with the original belt, which BTH is quiet flexible.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

SonicDon
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This discussion of changing motor pulleys on turntables causes me to remember what I did in the 1970's: I owned a stereo shop (I was a Bang & Olufsen dealer, but repaired other brands.)  I remember a customer coming in the store with a  European turntable with a 50Hz motor pulley.  A 60Hz pulley was unobtainable. The voltage could be changed to 120 volts but the speed was incorrect.  What I did was to take off the platter and while the motor was running, placed a fine file against the pulley and filed down the (brass) pulley size gradually, checking the speed by replacing the platter and using a strobe disc.  The whole operation was very easy,  took about 15 minutes or less and worked very well.  We did this a couple of times later.  I would definitely recommend replacing the pulley with the correct one,  but if it is not available...

 

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