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Network Link router and ISP router?

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Millemissen
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Millemissen posted on Fri, Feb 7 2014 7:54 PM

DoubleU writes in another thread:

"If you look at the drawings of every NL-product, you can see that in all scenario’s, B&O uses a 2nd router. A network link router, on top of the ISP router. This is an approved router that B&O recommends for a trouble free subnetwork.

I think lots of problems that were reported here could be prevented if that advice was taken more serious."

This gives me the opportunity to ask a question, that I wanted for quite a while:

How many of you - especially those who have one or more NL-product(s) - have a second 'Network router' in addition to the 'ISP-router'?

If you have - how are your expriences in terms of stability etc with a seperate router for the B&O network?

Greetings Millemissen

 

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Rudi Pedersen
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Verified by andy_js

Hi,

This is true B&O recommend to have two separate router to have the right setup.

We all know that having a network at home, with Wifi, require some skills to make this running the right way. Many people have trouble with such a setup. To my mind, B&O have done a mistake to change to a NL system, where the NL is running at the same network as your ordinary network. I do understand why, as the workload to install new cables in your house is a major bottleneck for many people.So it is much easier to use the existing network.

The NL is of course a good solution in terms of cables and connectors and standards, but maybe this should have been a closed loop of network to secure the Quality of Service in the network.

I have tried the recommended way with two routers and this works of course, but gives you many disadvantages on the top. One is, that you neat to switch wifi network all the time, as controlling the B&O products is one and when I, as an example, want to control my IHC system I have to change network again etc.

Here is my suggestion.
The main issue is not to have two networks, but more the quality of the network. You need to have a high speed switch network than can be used both to run audio and video over the network to and between the B&O products and at the same time, have your computers and iPhones and all other stuff at the same network.
This requires a network more and better than a traditionel network and even better than the products suggested by B&O. The suggestion in former days said Cisco...or more precise Linksys (owned ny Cisco) routers. This is, to my mind, not the best solution. You can, to support my argument, also see B&O have updated there recommendation to another system now. Probably not because I say so, but because they have also seen this as a problem.

The recommendation now is Cisco Meraki - with only one problem - this is so expensive to install. The routers and switches are very expensive in terms of hardware but even more on software - that comes every years as a subscription. But Meraki er really a nice product.

I have choose Ubiquiti - a product from US.
I see above that people talks fast routers, but this is not what needed. First of all you must disable the router provided by the ISP, a cable modem or a router - those products are discount products not capable of doing the job. Add a new router with a firewall. Then add switches - the quality of the switches are the most important, as they - and not the router - handle the traffic.

This works very well for me and I have not problems in the network - I can download heavy files and no quality problems on the B&O products.

When I have more time, I will do some test using VLAN as this can separate the traffic in virtual segments. I will also look at setting up Qos (Quality of Service) for each product etc.

Best regards Rudi 

All Replies

Michael
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As an IT guy I think it sounds like complete madness. And I'm not really surprised since they recommended people to buy certain Cisco routers to cope with problems with buggy airplay-enabled devices and such in the past. Use just ONE router on your network. The NL-network is supposed to be on the same network as your other equipment. If you need a better router then replace the old one (if you need the ISP router because it contains the modem or anything else - then change it to bridge mode so the other router can take over the routing feature and so on).

DoubleU
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Reason why B&O wants you to use certain routers sounds very obvious to me. You simply can’t guarantee a stable and good working product depending on all those different routers out there. Specially the ones from certain providers. My ISP router/modem is also in bridge mode for several reasons. In most environments one router should do the trick. 

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Sat, Feb 8 2014 2:11 AM

In my experience the quality and stability of different wireless routers and even wireless network cards for computers varies widely, so I can see why they would recommend use of a specific router(s). One thing I don't quite understand is why the PM is limited to only the 2.4 GHz band given that this is a crowded band and a lot of the market is moving to 5 GHz. 

Ive never gotten a wireless router from my ISP, I have only gotten the cable modem from them and handled the wireless myself. 

A standing joke around here is if you want to freak out your neighbors name your wireless network "NSA Surveillance Van #3"...

Jeff

I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus. Sad

Michael
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Of course there is a lot of different routers out there but I don't think that recommending a Cisco router because of problems in the tv/audio hardware/software is a good idea in the first place.

Anyway, you should only have one router connected. And if you need to keep your ISP router then put it in bridge mode so that the other router can take care of it properly. Using several routers will not only make your units on the different networks unable to communicate with each other easily, it will also impact network performance. 

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Thu, May 18 2017 12:28 PM

I'm preparing to setup my NL with an NL/ML converter to my current ML network and was curious if people have more input for this thread.

I currently have my ISP router in bridge mode connected to an Airport Extreme in the den as my router. I have additional Airport Extremes or Airport Express devices thought the home to extend the wi-fi. My thought is to wire a Cat7 cable from the Airport Extreme router in the den to the living room where I would connect the Cat7 cable to the NL/ML converter. The NL/ML converter would have a ML connection to a ML distributor box, to which the BeoSound 5 would also be connected by ML. Another ML cable is already connected to the ML distributor box to connect to the rest of the ML around the home.

My BeoSound 1 in the kitchen is currently connected wirelessly to the wi-fi. For a more secure connection, I could add a network switch to the Cat7 cable in the living room and then connect both the NL/ML converter and the BeoSound 1 by Cat7 cables to that network switch in the living room.

Am I headed in the right direction? Thoughts?

Rudi Pedersen
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Verified by andy_js

Hi,

This is true B&O recommend to have two separate router to have the right setup.

We all know that having a network at home, with Wifi, require some skills to make this running the right way. Many people have trouble with such a setup. To my mind, B&O have done a mistake to change to a NL system, where the NL is running at the same network as your ordinary network. I do understand why, as the workload to install new cables in your house is a major bottleneck for many people.So it is much easier to use the existing network.

The NL is of course a good solution in terms of cables and connectors and standards, but maybe this should have been a closed loop of network to secure the Quality of Service in the network.

I have tried the recommended way with two routers and this works of course, but gives you many disadvantages on the top. One is, that you neat to switch wifi network all the time, as controlling the B&O products is one and when I, as an example, want to control my IHC system I have to change network again etc.

Here is my suggestion.
The main issue is not to have two networks, but more the quality of the network. You need to have a high speed switch network than can be used both to run audio and video over the network to and between the B&O products and at the same time, have your computers and iPhones and all other stuff at the same network.
This requires a network more and better than a traditionel network and even better than the products suggested by B&O. The suggestion in former days said Cisco...or more precise Linksys (owned ny Cisco) routers. This is, to my mind, not the best solution. You can, to support my argument, also see B&O have updated there recommendation to another system now. Probably not because I say so, but because they have also seen this as a problem.

The recommendation now is Cisco Meraki - with only one problem - this is so expensive to install. The routers and switches are very expensive in terms of hardware but even more on software - that comes every years as a subscription. But Meraki er really a nice product.

I have choose Ubiquiti - a product from US.
I see above that people talks fast routers, but this is not what needed. First of all you must disable the router provided by the ISP, a cable modem or a router - those products are discount products not capable of doing the job. Add a new router with a firewall. Then add switches - the quality of the switches are the most important, as they - and not the router - handle the traffic.

This works very well for me and I have not problems in the network - I can download heavy files and no quality problems on the B&O products.

When I have more time, I will do some test using VLAN as this can separate the traffic in virtual segments. I will also look at setting up Qos (Quality of Service) for each product etc.

Best regards Rudi 

beojeff
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When I went to buy cabling, Cat7 was not available for the lengths that I needed. Therefore, I temporarily am using Cat6. Since my condo is a New York loft style, the cabling is quite easy to replace when needed. I was told that fibre optic networks will be the next big standard, but they are quite expensive right now. Later this year, my building is being wired for fiber optic internet. I suppose that this will bring with it the need for updated routers anyway.

andy_js
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andy_js replied on Wed, May 24 2017 10:43 PM

Advising customers to have 2 routers is complete madness and a recipe for trouble.  I have a hard time figuring out why B&O don't just say what the real problem is: consumer grade routers are garbage.

The sort of router you get from your ISP or from PC world is made down to a price.  The hardware is crap, the software is crap.  So many corners have been cut that it doesn't really comply with standards, etc.

You need to get yourself something enterprise grade.  Something that will run 24/7 without any hiccups.  I would think that's why they recommend Cisco, which also make enterprise grade stuff.

Rudi is right in recommending Ubiquiti.  Their stuff is bullet proof, and it's fast.

Aussie Michael
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Michael:

Anyway, you should only have one router connected. And if you need to keep your ISP router then put it in bridge mode so that the other router can take care of it properly. Using several routers will not only make your units on the different networks unable to communicate with each other easily, it will also impact network performance.

That's what I have done

My ISP cable modem is also a router. I switched the router component of it off and purchased a second router a Nighthawk X8

I only have 3 networks (tri band) from the one Nighthawk and one band I use solely for b&o

The cable modem I use the Ethernet ports for other devices.

vlohjr1
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Rudi Pedersen:

Hi,

This is true B&O recommend to have two separate router to have the right setup.

We all know that having a network at home, with Wifi, require some skills to make this running the right way. Many people have trouble with such a setup. To my mind, B&O have done a mistake to change to a NL system, where the NL is running at the same network as your ordinary network. I do understand why, as the workload to install new cables in your house is a major bottleneck for many people.So it is much easier to use the existing network.

The NL is of course a good solution in terms of cables and connectors and standards, but maybe this should have been a closed loop of network to secure the Quality of Service in the network.

I have tried the recommended way with two routers and this works of course, but gives you many disadvantages on the top. One is, that you neat to switch wifi network all the time, as controlling the B&O products is one and when I, as an example, want to control my IHC system I have to change network again etc.

Here is my suggestion. The main issue is not to have two networks, but more the quality of the network. You need to have a high speed switch network than can be used both to run audio and video over the network to and between the B&O products and at the same time, have your computers and iPhones and all other stuff at the same network. This requires a network more and better than a traditionel network and even better than the products suggested by B&O. The suggestion in former days said Cisco...or more precise Linksys (owned ny Cisco) routers. This is, to my mind, not the best solution. You can, to support my argument, also see B&O have updated there recommendation to another system now. Probably not because I say so, but because they have also seen this as a problem.

The recommendation now is Cisco Meraki - with only one problem - this is so expensive to install. The routers and switches are very expensive in terms of hardware but even more on software - that comes every years as a subscription. But Meraki er really a nice product.

I have choose Ubiquiti - a product from US. I see above that people talks fast routers, but this is not what needed. First of all you must disable the router provided by the ISP, a cable modem or a router - those products are discount products not capable of doing the job. Add a new router with a firewall. Then add switches - the quality of the switches are the most important, as they - and not the router - handle the traffic.

This works very well for me and I have not problems in the network - I can download heavy files and no quality problems on the B&O products.

When I have more time, I will do some test using VLAN as this can separate the traffic in virtual segments. I will also look at setting up Qos (Quality of Service) for each product etc.

Best regards Rudi

Hi Rudi

Can you please clarify why a dual core/fast router like linksys for example is not important as compared to using a mesh network?

Thanks

Vince
mbolo01
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I only have one network (mix of Ethernet, CPL and Wifi), a single IP domain, my ISP router handles the internet routing and I have no issue at all, Multiroom working very well as well as Internet based music streaming. The only piece of hardware that may require more attention is the WiFi kit as not all devices behave the same with Wifi and being able to shut down 5Ghz helps in Wisa setup (more and more have 5Ghz up all the time).

I don't understand why B&O keeps finger pointing ISP equipment and require separate network and router, each country B&O vendor coming with its own brand, when all that counts in bandwidth usage and network quality is a good physical layer (cables, switches, CPL adapters), routing is not involved when devices in the same network are talking to each other, routing is only involved when going on the internet (browsing, streaming, mailing, torrent, etc...) and usually the internet access bandwidth is much lower than the local network one.

BS Moment, BS Core, BS Ouverture, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5, TR1

Rudi Pedersen
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Hi

I think many B&O users have relative simple networks like 1-2 products and few products beside that, like iPhone, iPad. If you have a small flat, one combined router/wifi/switch provided by the ISP can be an ok solution for you.

I am not saying a Linksys product like the EA4500 suggested by B&O cannot be used. This depends much about your network size and building size.

Remember that, as an example, a Linksys EA4500 is a box with both a Firewall, Router, Switch and Wifi antenne. Dual core...as you say...is just the "computer" running the box. As I remember this box is not dual-core but dual band, i.e. two wifi bands.
The throughput on the EA4500 is low, I have not been able to get more than 0.4 Gbytes out of this box.

My network at home is equipped with 32 wired cables for Essence, Moment, TV's and a Auralic streamning for my BL5. All audio gets flac format from a NAS and video get films from another NAS, On top of this runs computers, iPhone, iPads and IHC systems (for controlling lights, heating etc) and Somfy for indoor and outdoor screens.
One simple combined box is not able to handle this without congestions in the network.

It is true the network is a mesh network, but the switches from Ubiquiti can switch up to 36 Gbps and deliver more per port than needed to any device.

I have 32 port wires, 3 AP in the house and between 40-50 clients like B&O and Apple products getting access.The router/firewall is a Zyxell.
Remember the router is mostly needed handling traffic to and from the Internet. Most of my traffic (with high bandwith) is internal. From the internet typically music from Deezer in low format like 320kbps.

As said before, I have no problems at the moment, but setting up VLAN for B&O and a VLAN for other traffic will probably make this even better and on top of that you can make a priory's to the traffic by QoS per user/port.

And one example, in the old network I had with a EA4500, I had problems all the time with the B&O Moment as the Jukebox connect by wifi to the EA4500. This connection was lost many time. If the software was good then the Moment would have re-connected again the right way, but the old Moment software was bad, so I had to reset the Moment (Soundhart) to get it up running. The problem is of course the Moment, but also the bad coverage from the EA4500, as the antenne was not as good as a stand-alone AP.

This is only the way I look at this comparison, I am sure others have another view.

BR Rudi

Rudi Pedersen
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Hi

I think many B&O users have relative simple networks like 1-2 products and few products beside that, like iPhone, iPad. If you have a small flat, one combined router/wifi/switch provided by the ISP can be an ok solution for you.

I am not saying a Linksys product like the EA4500 suggested by B&O cannot be used. This depends much about your network size and building size.

Remember that, as an example, a Linksys EA4500 is a box with both a Firewall, Router, Switch and Wifi antenne. Dual core...as you say...is just the "computer" running the box. As I remember this box is not dual-core but dual band, i.e. two wifi bands.
The throughput on the EA4500 is low, I have not been able to get more than 0.4 Gbytes out of this box.

My network at home is equipped with 32 wired cables for Essence, Moment, TV's and a Auralic streamning for my BL5. All audio gets flac format from a NAS and video get films from another NAS, On top of this runs computers, iPhone, iPads and IHC systems (for controlling lights, heating etc) and Somfy for indoor and outdoor screens.
One simple combined box is not able to handle this without congestions in the network.

It is true the network is a mesh network, but the switches from Ubiquiti can switch up to 36 Gbps and deliver more per port than needed to any device.

I have 32 port wires, 3 AP in the house and between 40-50 clients like B&O and Apple products getting access.The router/firewall is a Zyxell.
Remember the router is mostly needed handling traffic to and from the Internet. Most of my traffic (with high bandwith) is internal. From the internet typically music from Deezer in low format like 320kbps.

As said before, I have no problems at the moment, but setting up VLAN for B&O and a VLAN for other traffic will probably make this even better and on top of that you can make a priory's to the traffic by QoS per user/port.

And one example, in the old network I had with a EA4500, I had problems all the time with the B&O Moment as the Jukebox connect by wifi to the EA4500. This connection was lost many time. If the software was good then the Moment would have re-connected again the right way, but the old Moment software was bad, so I had to reset the Moment (Soundhart) to get it up running. The problem is of course the Moment, but also the bad coverage from the EA4500, as the antenne was not as good as a stand-alone AP.

This is only the way I look at this comparison, I am sure others have another view.

BR Rudi

Seanie_230
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My network at home is below and works perfectly

1x ISP router running DHCP and a single IP network, WAN side it is connected to a BT openreach fibre modem the other side is connected to a net gear gigabit switch.

The switch is connected to another 2 netgear switches around the house

I have a zyxel wireless AP connected to one switch

I have around 30 devices connected to my Ethernet network and 10 devices connected to my wifi.

I also have a power over mains device connected for my lodger and he has his own wifi running.

My NL devices all work perfectly

The moment is using wifi as on the old FW I used to have issues when using Ethernet and I have never swapped it back.

I have BLGW, Phillips hue, skyQ, IP camera's, computers, Apple devices, and loads of other devices all running in the same subnet and everything works brilliantly. No drop outs.

As the guys said most data is internal and is only routed if it leaves the network via the gateway.

NL devices will use broadcast or multicast address so as long as my network allows Comms between wireless ap and wired network all works fine.

Good backbone is important and router less so

BLGW - Rekindling the love of ML

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