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Stage Mk2

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Chris Townsend
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Chris Townsend Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2021 7:29 PM
Back to Europe today on my travels, and it appears a new stage with optional surround speakers and maybe sub are on the way post March time. All I know unfortunately!

Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.

Bw789
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Bw789 replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 1:52 PM

There have been rumblings of this for a little while it seems! If they could integrate PowerLink into this somehow, it would be amazing!

swestland
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swestland replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 2:26 PM

For sure, I would cancel my eclipse order and buy a Stage with Powerlink/Wisa instead. Probably only miss PUC integration but that's not worth few thousand euro to me. 

Chris Townsend
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Expect big delays early next year due global chip shortages. Effects all products.

Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.

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Bw789 replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 3:33 PM

This is why I've been a bit unsure that a more advanced stage is coming, unless of course B&O don't mind the cannibalization of other products.

 

swestland:

For sure, I would cancel my eclipse order and buy a Stage with Powerlink/Wisa instead. Probably only miss PUC integration but that's not worth few thousand euro to me. 

 

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Bw789 replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 3:35 PM

Sounds about right! I ordered my new Vanmoof Bike 2 months ago, just got the shipping notification this morning.

Chris Townsend:
Expect big delays early next year due global chip shortages. Effects all products.

 

Millemissen
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swestland:

For sure, I would cancel my eclipse order and buy a Stage with Powerlink/Wisa instead.

Who says that they - if there is thruth in this rumour - will be using PL/WiSA?

They might instead be utilizing the power of the new Mozart platform, if that would be integrated….......for connecting additional speakers.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 6:37 PM
If it’s PL/WiSa, i doubt it’ll be any kind of “cheap” just because of the parts needed and it’ll loose the Atmos certification unfortunately because of the way the TrueImage works currently and the restrictions Dolby puts on the Atmos/TrueHD license

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

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Mikipidia:
and it’ll loose the Atmos certification unfortunately because of the way the TrueImage works currently and the restrictions Dolby puts on the Atmos/TrueHD license

Why is that?

They did not loose the Dolby HD licence - it (the Atmos) is just a decoder…..I guess Dolby will be happy with the money they become.

MM

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swestland
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swestland replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 7:56 PM

Millemissen:

swestland:

For sure, I would cancel my eclipse order and buy a Stage with Powerlink/Wisa instead.

Who says that they - if there is thruth in this rumour - will be using PL/WiSA?

They might instead be utilizing the power of the new Mozart platform, if that would be integrated….......for connecting additional speakers.

MM

I don't think either it will become a powerlink product. But to extend the stage TV sound to other speakers would really be an additional USP to the product. Others are doing this, Sony, B&W etc. So if they want to grow in this market segment they have no other choice in my opinion. And I guess they will as this segment is much larger then persons buying a complete Beolab surround setup. 

Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 8:47 PM
No it’s not, it’s an upscaler like TrueImage is. You can technically have Atmos with 1 speaker or 4 or 3 or what ever combo. I was confused about this too until Henrik enlightened us on the podcast a while ago. Besides this to be able to implement it you have to meet certain parameters Dolby sets for it to be accreditted as such. Secondly they haven’t figured out a way yet to run two upscalers on the same chip at the same time yet. If I am not mistaken Geoff also said something similar with his interview he did with Henrik on his BOTF channel. Smile

Secondly the cost, for PL/WiSa they’d need to implement a DSSE board like you find in the eclipse/harmony and the bare cost of that board without psu etc was around €900 pre chip shortage so I imagine that price to make has gone up considerably.

That would mean a “super” stage would be atleast €1500 more than the current one if they don’t change a heck of a lot more to fit it all and or do nicer cable management and or have potential stand option.

If they were to do something like a fully built “super” stage I easily see it being €5000 ex panel or anything else.

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 9:07 PM

Indeed - there are Atmos certified receivers which also have their own upscaling / downmixing algorithms.

Those algorithms cannot be that different from TrueImage.

Its not obvious to me that both cannot coexist on a B&O product, but time will tell I guess.

There was of course something in the Geoff Martin interview with Henryk which raised some questions about whether they see the need for Atmos, beyond the standalone Stage, so who knows.

But I'll take an expandable Stage 2 (or whatever it is), even if its not Atmos.

 

 

Millemissen:

Mikipidia:
and it’ll loose the Atmos certification unfortunately because of the way the TrueImage works currently and the restrictions Dolby puts on the Atmos/TrueHD license

Why is that?

They did not loose the Dolby HD licence - it (the Atmos) is just a decoder…..I guess Dolby will be happy with the money they become.

MM

 

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 9:22 PM
Mikipidia:

No it’s not, it’s an upscaler like TrueImage is. You can technically have Atmos with 1 speaker or 4 or 3 or what ever combo. I was confused about this too until Henrik enlightened us on the podcast a while ago. Besides this to be able to implement it you have to meet certain parameters Dolby sets for it to be accreditted as such. Secondly they haven’t figured out a way yet to run two upscalers on the same chip at the same time yet. If I am not mistaken Geoff also said something similar with his interview he did with Henrik on his BOTF channel.

Secondly the cost, for PL/WiSa they’d need to implement a DSSE board like you find in the eclipse/harmony and the bare cost of that board without psu etc was around €900 pre chip shortage so I imagine that price to make has gone up considerably.

That would mean a “super” stage would be atleast €1500 more than the current one if they don’t change a heck of a lot more to fit it all and or do nicer cable management and or have potential stand option.

If they were to do something like a fully built “super” stage I easily see it being €5000 ex panel or anything else. New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beolab 3's, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia

mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4

Old: Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.

But there are Atmos capable receivers which also have their own up scaling /down mixing algorithms on board.

So there is a path surely for both to coexist, assuming B&O are willing.

Personally, I sympathise with the idea that they need to offer Atmos for broader market recognition reasons.

But who knows with B&O…though personally I’m not bothered by Atmos.
Allianz
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Allianz replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 10:02 PM

Why Stage would ever need some old Trueimage processing? Trueimage could never ever achieve same as Dolby Atmos or DTS:X. It is only upmixer without metadata like Dolby surround and Dts neural X. Please just use common standard's and audio formats that movies and tv-shows are made and as artist intended. It is night and day difference for REAL 3D audio (Atmos/DTS:X) and upmixed one. It can sound nice and even add for experience but it is not anywhere near the same.

Yes. Atmos can scale from few speakers to a lot of speakers it does not mean that it is just upmixed for let's say 7.1.4 setup. All modern AVR have multiple decoders inside and you can use those mostly as you want. If you have dts 5.1 you can use dolby surround to upmix this to example 7.1.4 or you can use Neural X to do it if you prefer or even Auro3D. Limitation probably is that Dolby won't let any upmixer work with ATMOS signal. That is prohibited also on every device. ATMOS is ATMOS period. Why you would ever want to use Trueimage or anythin else with Atmos is good question also. Atmos can scale up to 32 channels already in home equiment (Trinnov32). 

Atmos sound objects are precisely made in recording studio to move in 3d space. Your receiver then know after calibration that space and can locate sound as intended. Atmos is carried with dd+ as lossy or true hd as lossless with metadata. Upmixers won't have this important info. Wireless transmitter 1 is not 5000eur and have WiSa and Powerlink.

The irony in Eclipse and Harmony is that LG tv's in them have Dolby Atmos. Sound center's have everything they need to do Atmos expect decoder/licence. Harmony wont even understand True Hd lossless signal that is quite embarrassment for 10.000eur sound center. Yes you can use PCM but still. Customer is not the winner on this stubbornness to stick with old tech when everyone else is using latest tech for half decade.

Sony is making same stupid thing with Ps5 and new "3d audio" for headphones and now even for tv. When same time Xbox and pc had years native Atmos games. Same game with real Atmos vs ps5 version 7.1 upmixed is not even a contest.

Anyway I would be really happy to upgrade Stage mk1->mk2. Hopefully for surround option and please add option for subwoofer also. (Yes in most cases it really don't need one but on every review they are whining that it does not have an option. After option to add Beolab 19 they could whine how much that subwoofer will cost you but atleast it would be an option Stick out tongue)

 

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Mikipidia replied on Wed, Oct 27 2021 11:59 PM

I am not against this at all so don't get me wrong, I am merely trying to explain where they are coming from and possible obstructions in doing so and being realistic in price expectations. I don't fully know what Dolby demands and if B&O is willing to give that up for instance, I know what they have said so far regarding this ''issue''.

I wouldn't mind at all if the soundcenter could be retrofitted/updated with TrueHD / Atmos. I don't miss it much honestly, but it would pull them up a bit with the times.


That said, the TrueImage does it way better than anyone else's I've ever tried for any sort of normal mixed use (music & film) and it's so seamless. TrueImage is still something B&O should be very proud of!

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

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swestland replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 7:46 AM

Mikipidia:

I am not against this at all so don't get me wrong, I am merely trying to explain where they are coming from and possible obstructions in doing so and being realistic in price expectations. I don't fully know what Dolby demands and if B&O is willing to give that up for instance, I know what they have said so far regarding this ''issue''.

I wouldn't mind at all if the soundcenter could be retrofitted/updated with TrueHD / Atmos. I don't miss it much honestly, but it would pull them up a bit with the times.


That said, the TrueImage does it way better than anyone else's I've ever tried for any sort of normal mixed use (music & film) and it's so seamless. TrueImage is still something B&O should be very proud of!

I saw the interview with Geoff this week on YouTube with BOTF. There BOTF asks Geoff on their stand on Atmos. Geoff was very clear that only 'atmos' is not their goal. He said 'What do you mean with supporting atmos? Just so that your processor can decode the atmos signal and send it to your speakers? Atmos makes no sense in many devices such as phones.' 

But he's not entirely right with the new technologies headphone producers have come up with, see Apple with their spatial audio. Especially in headphones this works pretty well. I think B&O is trying to figure out how that could work within their systems.

If you have a complete 7.1.2 B&O surround setup than decoding atmos makes sense. TrueImage could still be active, as it could incorporate room compensation etc. Or it could mix down the Atmos track to your 3.1 set or whatever number of speakers. 

Will the soundcenters be upgrade able to Atmos support? I'm not sure if thats possible, it could be just software but if it is like @Mikipedia is saying that Dolby is requiring a very specific way of working with Atmos it could mean B&O need to change their hardware approach to receiving and decoding audio signals. That would require a hardware upgrade. I remember in the old CRT BV Avants your could upgrade the hardware of the surround processor, they did that many years back with the BV from my parents to support new formats. Also B&O said the internals of the Beolab 28 will be upgrade able when new wireless formats are required. 

Anyway, it will be just guessing from our side until they release it. It could also be typical B&O to do it completely different from all manufacturers and choose for a whole different approach. 

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 9:51 AM

Yes its not entirely clear to me too.

Watching the Geoff Martin interview, he makes the point that

-  TrueImage is an up mixer / down mixer, and

-   Atmos contains (a) up mixing down mixing (b) a decoder (c) some virtualisation (up down firing) and (d) some speaker configuration stuff.

Yes he says you cant put them in the same bucket (by which I think he means they are not the same / that similar / comparable).

But I wouldnt conclude from the interview that there is a complex overlap between the two, nor that the two cannot coexist.

Again, other brands have receivers with their own up / down mixing and are also Atmos certified.

As for whether B&O have the enthusiasm to implement Atmos certification (more broadly than just the Stage), who knows.

As an aside, I had a Linn surround system before B&O, and however slick TrueImage is, I dont find its spatial image creation significantly different to what I had with my Linn.

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Tassos replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 12:00 PM

Being someone who has been waiting for a loooong time a Stage/Beosystem4 kind of product I am very happy although I made my move last year and bought myself a beosystem 4. I would be happy though to upgrade to the new stage but having already eight speakers using powerlink connections (some are wisa as well but I always prefer a cable connection) it would have no meaning for me. B&O has always paid attention to backward compatibility so I would like to believe that somehow they will stick to it. I fully support the mozart platform (don't get me wrong) but all these people who have bought beolabs till the new platform showed up should start all over again? They would have to sell their existing speakers to get the mozart ones? Their could be a middle road....let's say something like a converter. A box that could contain the mozart platform and can be connected to the non-mozart speakers. Somehting like the beocreate board but much simpler to install.

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swestland replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 12:25 PM

Tassos:

Being someone who has been waiting for a loooong time a Stage/Beosystem4 kind of product I am very happy although I made my move last year and bought myself a beosystem 4. I would be happy though to upgrade to the new stage but having already eight speakers using powerlink connections (some are wisa as well but I always prefer a cable connection) it would have no meaning for me. B&O has always paid attention to backward compatibility so I would like to believe that somehow they will stick to it. I fully support the mozart platform (don't get me wrong) but all these people who have bought beolabs till the new platform showed up should start all over again? They would have to sell their existing speakers to get the mozart ones? Their could be a middle road....let's say something like a converter. A box that could contain the mozart platform and can be connected to the non-mozart speakers. Somehting like the beocreate board but much simpler to install.

No as far as I understood the Mozart platform is not supposed to work in surround setups. Its just for music in multirooms and in multi speakers setup. 

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 1:37 PM
swestland:

No as far as I understood the Mozart platform is not supposed to work in surround setups. Its just for music in multirooms and in multi speakers setup.

At the moment yes, but there are plans to allow Mozart speakers to be used in surround setups
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Sandyb:

As for whether B&O have the enthusiasm to implement Atmos certification (more broadly than just the Stage), who knows.

I guess we will have to differentiate here:

It might very well be the case that the Acoustic Department has ‘the enthusiasm to implement Atmos’.

However, the Product Definition department might think different.

MM

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:58 PM
Millemissen:

I guess we will have to differentiate here:

It might very well be the case that the Acoustic Department has ‘ the enthusiasm to implement Atmos ’.

However, the Product Definition department might think different.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Agreed completely

All I was trying to articulate was that it’s not clear that there is an incompatibility between TrueImage and Atmos.

Perhaps someone with a more technical understanding can explain.

I don’t buy the idea that TrueImage sort of does Atmos, sound image wise. And as just an up / down mixer, the overlap with the various aspects of Atmos are small

But again, maybe I’m missing something

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Mikipidia replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 4:45 PM
Sandyb:

Agreed completely

All I was trying to articulate was that it’s not clear that there is an incompatibility between TrueImage and Atmos.

Perhaps someone with a more technical understanding can explain.

I don’t buy the idea that TrueImage sort of does Atmos, sound image wise. And as just an up / down mixer, the overlap with the various aspects of Atmos are small

But again, maybe I’m missing something

You’re welcome to come here and stay and test it out!

I know it’s not Atmos, but what ever it does is very impressive! It can somehow differentiate height sounds and always place them in my ceiling mounted 17’s.

Like two of these super annoying ads we have on tv with a doorbell just like ours and it’s too realistic Super AngryStick out tongue

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

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Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 5:22 PM

I'm sure it is - and I'm guessing anyone with a 5.1 setup would appreciate the added value from height speakers.

But value added from height cant be Atmos (with up / side firing speakers etc).   It may well be more than enough for many (I can well believe it is), but it surely cant be the same experience as full Atmos (even if thats only 5.1.2). Unless one believes Atmos is predominantly a marketing trick.

Anyway, I'm never going to put in height speakers, so it's of limited use here.

Absent any real height speakers in their range (not sure the Celestials count), I'm not sure its really on the horizon for B&O anyways, outside of the Stage.

Meanwhile, I'll happily take a sound centre solution from them, expandable yes, and happy if its just normal 5.1.

 

 

Mikipidia:
Sandyb:

 

Agreed completely

 

 

All I was trying to articulate was that it’s not clear that there is an incompatibility between TrueImage and Atmos.

 

 

Perhaps someone with a more technical understanding can explain.

 

 

I don’t buy the idea that TrueImage sort of does Atmos, sound image wise. And as just an up / down mixer, the overlap with the various aspects of Atmos are small

 

 

But again, maybe I’m missing something

 

 

You’re welcome to come here and stay and test it out!

 

I know it’s not Atmos, but what ever it does is very impressive! It can somehow differentiate height sounds and always place them in my ceiling mounted 17’s.

 

Like two of these super annoying ads we have on tv with a doorbell just like ours and it’s too realistic Super AngryStick out tongue

 

Millemissen
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Sandyb:
Millemissen:

 

I guess we will have to differentiate here:

 

It might very well be the case that the Acoustic Department has ‘ the enthusiasm to implement Atmos ’.

 

However, the Product Definition department might think different.

 

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

 

Agreed completely

All I was trying to articulate was that it’s not clear that there is an incompatibility between TrueImage and Atmos.

Perhaps someone with a more technical understanding can explain.

I don’t buy the idea that TrueImage sort of does Atmos, sound image wise. And as just an up / down mixer, the overlap with the various aspects of Atmos are small

But again, maybe I’m missing something

 

No, there is absolutely no incompatibility between these two ‘things’.

As you also wrote above: there are other AVR’s that have support for Atmos decoding and also have some kind of up-/downmixing. All better AVR’s nowadays does ‘cross-upmixing’.

The TrueImage algorithm/processing was inventet and in use before Dolby Atmos was launched for home theater use. 

Where Atmos primarily is an encoding system that offers a bed/a base layer of 5.1/7.1 (or more) channels encoded as Dolby TrueHD (for blurays) or Dolby Digital plus (for streaming) with implemented data for the hight channels, the TrueImage was made to make the input channels match the layout of a given setup for better and more homogen sound experience in our rooms, especially when more people are listening. Please do remember that the first versions were made for the sound system in the Audi A8.

The Atmos soundtrack needs an Atmos decoder in order to handle the metadata/to place these sound objects according to the layout of the setup. A sound system without this decoder simply plays the 5.1/7.1 track after decoding to PCM from DolbyTrueHD or Digital Plus.

That means…if you have B&O Sound Center with a 3.0 speaker layout, the TrueImage processing will downmix the 5.1/7.1 track to a 3.0 track.

Other AVR’s will do similar, if they don’t have an Atmos capable speaker layout to work on.

(And if you have a 2 channel track, the TrueImage processing can upmix to a e.g. 5.1 layout, if you want).

 

So - two completely different technologies.

One may then argue that the other upmixers (the Dolby Surround, the Auromatic etc) can do a better job.

This will be a personal matter and - I guess - also heavily will depend on the speakers and the speakers layout and the room.

Thruth is, that B&O users with a multichannel setup in general are quite confident with what the True Image algorithm can do (rightly configured).

 

A big question here is, how many Beovision owners have (or would want to invest in) more than a 5.1 or 7.1 setup.

A question that a B&O product definition department surely will want an answer to, before saying……...go for it.

I see no problem for the Sound Department to make this reality ,if…..

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Allianz replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 6:13 PM

@Mikipidia

I have no doubt that your setup would sound Fantastic with Trueimage and ceiling mounted 17's will add a lot for the experienceYes - thumbs up.

This kind of processing were needed before Atmos/Dts:X were available in other systems also. Auro3D was a big thing then and now it is quite dead. Upmixer's can pick up some amount of "elevation" from basic signal but even then it is not mixed there. Example Dts Neural:X wont do anything for L/C/R channel balance and it is always as original from lets say 5.1 or 7.1. But it will do it's magic for surrounds and ceiling speakers and yes it is also picking up "elevation" really nicely. I always use Neural X/Dolby Surround if true 3d formats are not available. But mostly those will expand your 2d surround sounds to ceiling and you will be inside that "3d bubble" like in Atmos. If you have a rainstorm etc it will come from surrounds and ceiling and can sound really nice but in real Atmos it can do it only from ceiling and not a single sound from basic surrounds. Real 3D will add pinpoint accuracy on the sound field and as we know it is not channel based system. It uses different audio objects that can move in every direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2cD9CPLMyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsLGDYLbqWo

If you have 5.1/7.1 or any lesser setup you probably have zero benefit for real Atmos. You really need to have ceiling speakers or at least up-firing Atmos enabled speakers. Stage in my opinion have fairly good Atmos effect with processing and partly upwards pointing drivers. It is not perfect but add's for the experience anyway. Most people would never put speakers on ceiling and even 5.1 is quite rare to see. Maybe that is also reason B&O is not having real Atmos on high priority for Harmony etc. But please let the customers have an option to choose. For me Beovision's are no go before they can process latest audio formats. I have even studied possibility to use external processor with Harmony to use it as  center channel but that does not seem to be workable solution.

I bet you would prefer to use original Atmos track in movies if you only had that option in Harmony. Stick out tongue

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swestland
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swestland replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 7:05 PM

Allianz:

@Mikipidia

I have no doubt that your setup would sound Fantastic with Trueimage and ceiling mounted 17's will add a lot for the experienceYes - thumbs up.

This kind of processing were needed before Atmos/Dts:X were available in other systems also. Auro3D was a big thing then and now it is quite dead. Upmixer's can pick up some amount of "elevation" from basic signal but even then it is not mixed there. Example Dts Neural:X wont do anything for L/C/R channel balance and it is always as original from lets say 5.1 or 7.1. But it will do it's magic for surrounds and ceiling speakers and yes it is also picking up "elevation" really nicely. I always use Neural X/Dolby Surround if true 3d formats are not available. But mostly those will expand your 2d surround sounds to ceiling and you will be inside that "3d bubble" like in Atmos. If you have a rainstorm etc it will come from surrounds and ceiling and can sound really nice but in real Atmos it can do it only from ceiling and not a single sound from basic surrounds. Real 3D will add pinpoint accuracy on the sound field and as we know it is not channel based system. It uses different audio objects that can move in every direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2cD9CPLMyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsLGDYLbqWo

If you have 5.1/7.1 or any lesser setup you probably have zero benefit for real Atmos. You really need to have ceiling speakers or at least up-firing Atmos enabled speakers. Stage in my opinion have fairly good Atmos effect with processing and partly upwards pointing drivers. It is not perfect but add's for the experience anyway. Most people would never put speakers on ceiling and even 5.1 is quite rare to see. Maybe that is also reason B&O is not having real Atmos on high priority for Harmony etc. But please let the customers have an option to choose. For me Beovision's are no go before they can process latest audio formats. I have even studied possibility to use external processor with Harmony to use it as  center channel but that does not seem to be workable solution.

I bet you would prefer to use original Atmos track in movies if you only had that option in Harmony. Stick out tongue

So what formats can the harmony and eclipse not decode, apart from atmos? I thought they have a pretty good capabilities when it comes to processing. Specs mentions:

Dolby Digital 5.1

Dolby Digital plus 7.1

DTS HD-Master Audio 7.1 and the underlying DTS formats 

PCM 7.1 multichannel

I miss Dolby TrueHD maybe but that's about the same as DTS HD MA I thought. But I'm with you that it would be nice to have it supported as the sound processor should be better capable of decoding than the TV it self. 

 

Allianz
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Allianz replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 7:35 PM

DTS HD MA is not the same if your movie disc/file is using TRUE HD. But yes it is lossless also and this can be managed by most players to decode and send it as PCM. No big loss here. Same has to be done on player or tv with current Stage&DTS formats. Stage wont make any sound with DTS. On lg C9 you can have tv to do translation to PCM but in CX and newer it has to be done in 4k player because neither will CX understand DTS anymore.

Funny that Stage know how to handle Atmos/Dolby formats but no DTS and Harmony the opposite.

Dolby Atmos and DTS:X are missing in Beovisions.

 

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Allianz
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Allianz replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 7:35 PM
Double

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Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 8:44 PM
The stage atmos license is different. Soundbar licenses are different to receiver/avr licenses and generally much easier to come by and less restictions. (Or so I’ve been told)

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chucky replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 9:17 PM
Mikipidia:

No it’s not, it’s an upscaler like TrueImage is. You can technically have Atmos with 1 speaker or 4 or 3 or what ever combo. I was confused about this too until Henrik enlightened us on the podcast a while ago. Besides this to be able to implement it you have to meet certain parameters Dolby sets for it to be accreditted as such. Secondly they haven’t figured out a way yet to run two upscalers on the same chip at the same time yet. If I am not mistaken Geoff also said something similar with his interview he did with Henrik on his BOTF channel.

Secondly the cost, for PL/WiSa they’d need to implement a DSSE board like you find in the eclipse/harmony and the bare cost of that board without psu etc was around €900 pre chip shortage so I imagine that price to make has gone up considerably.

That would mean a “super” stage would be atleast €1500 more than the current one if they don’t change a heck of a lot more to fit it all and or do nicer cable management and or have potential stand option.

If they were to do something like a fully built “super” stage I easily see it being €5000 ex panel or anything else. New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beolab 3's, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

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Michael priced at 5K anyone would take a Eclipse over a high priced sonosbar. Sorry it is not really appealing to me. Are they really putting a Ferrari engine into a Fiat?

A stage is an entry level BV, at these prices they will churn there own eclipse revenues. If this is the case then there is no hope left voor the future.

Like your show by the wayBig Smile
Allianz
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Allianz replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 9:42 PM

Sony STR-DH790 have Atmos licence and it is around 300e here for a new unit. It must have some really unique and sophisticated hardware inside to beat B&O soundcenters.Big Smile And all other receivers have had Atmos approx since 2014 at least midrange.

Edit: I think if current Stage would have left without Atmos it would not be selling as much at all. All the competition have Atmos and it is standard already in soundbar market. Beovisions won't have direct competition at all. You have so much integration with your other B&O stuff, design, high quality sound/center channel function etc. So few of potential customers (like me) are really missing the Atmos capability. It just would be divine equipment if it just had all the bells and whistles. That price I would really want the best performance available in my home cinema.

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Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 9:59 PM
Sandeep wouldn’tStick out tongue

Don’t forget that we’re no longer talking “stage” as we know it at this point. Especially if it has all the b&o goodies we’d expect of it and that’s where my price guidance comes from. I’d be happy to be wrong and see it lower. But it’s not as easy as just shoving a DSSE board in there and calling it a day, they’re rather large.

Besides at 5 grand it would be around €1750 less than just the soundcenter of an Eclipse iirc.

With any of these features it’s no longer an entry level product, but more like a beosystem 5 with an insane center speaker attached.

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Oct 28 2021 10:21 PM

Not sure what I wouldn't....lost track at this stage!

Anyway, I won't get too excited for a centre speaker / system 5 product - its far from clear to me anything is in the works, and even then a year away at a minimum.

Personally I'm hoping my BV12 lasts until they produce a BV in a different form factor.  Not a fan of either the Eclipse nor the Harmony, given my wall mounting fussiness. And for choice, I'd rather not have a two piece setup - LG plus Stage (2) for example - they look pretty ordinary in the end. The current Stage + LG combination looks far too mainstream, has no great wow factor, and doesn't scream B&O.  

So if circumstances dictate, a Stage 2 + LG Gallery will have to do, absent a new BV (which I dont expect for many years). 

But hey, we each have our own particular weirdness!

 

Mikipidia:
Sandeep wouldn’tStick out tongue

 

Don’t forget that we’re no longer talking “stage” as we know it at this point. Especially if it has all the b&o goodies we’d expect of it and that’s where my price guidance comes from. I’d be happy to be wrong and see it lower. But it’s not as easy as just shoving a DSSE board in there and calling it a day, they’re rather large.

 

Besides at 5 grand it would be around €1750 less than just the soundcenter of an Eclipse iirc.

 

 

With any of these features it’s no longer an entry level product, but more like a beosystem 5 with an insane center speaker attached.

 

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Not knowing whether there will be a Stage MK2 or not.

Maybe we should think differently about this - and not get lost in the hope for a Sound Center in the shape of a (Stage) soundbar.

Which options - e.g. the possibility of connecting wireless surround speakers (whatever those might be) or a subwoofer (for those who can’t get enough bas….and who want to fiddle with the placement of a sub in the room) could make it worth making a MK2 version?

What really could improve the Stage without turning it into a Sound Center……….and sellable at a reasonable pricepoint?

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Mikipidia replied on Fri, Oct 29 2021 11:47 AM
Well everyone says a subwoofer, i don’t think it needs it honestly, but b&o would have to make a cheaper sub then first. Because I doubt people would love buying a 19 with a stage as then you’re as close as could be to 5 grand againStick out tongue

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swestland replied on Fri, Oct 29 2021 3:58 PM

Mikipidia:
Well everyone says a subwoofer, i don’t think it needs it honestly, but b&o would have to make a cheaper sub then first. Because I doubt people would love buying a 19 with a stage as then you’re as close as could be to 5 grand againStick out tongue

True that. Sonos sub is €850,- :D So probably they are not going that route... 

I would say they go for the option to connect your Balance or Emerge as surround speakers. Not sure if you would buy 2 extra balance for L+R channel but could be possible. 1 Balance is more expensive than the Stage alone. So a 3.0 kit would set you back just below €6k. 

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Mikipidia:
Well everyone says a subwoofer, i don’t think it needs it honestly, but b&o would have to make a cheaper sub then first. Because I doubt people would love buying a 19 with a stage as then you’re as close as could be to 5 grand againStick out tongue

Like you I don’t believe in a Stage MK2 with features that would match those of a current Sound Center.

If - and if at all - this would have to work differently.

Though only guesswork, one may imagine the use of the Mozart platform for a MK2 version….and for connected speakers.

This would exclude the BL19 anyway.

In order to realize this a new sub would be needed…..how about a bundle of two speakers as surrounds and a sub?

Just speculating - that is what every other ‘soundbar company’ do..

But it would be the only way to do this without compromizing the bigger Sound Center based setups - and also to stay at a competitive pricepoint.

And they have made bundles before - think Beoplay S8/Beolab14…

 

Well - honestly I don’t really believe in this.

And - as you say - is this all needed….the Stage is pretty good as is.

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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Edmabu replied on Fri, Oct 29 2021 4:22 PM

IMO the things we want from the stage mk2 it’s what the speaker of the eclipse has , And you can buy it And mount it in your tv as far as i know

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moxxey replied on Fri, Oct 29 2021 5:06 PM

Chris Townsend:
Back to Europe today on my travels, and it appears a new stage with optional surround speakers and maybe sub are on the way post March time. All I know unfortunately!

I told the board about this in January 2021, Chris!

My dealer told me a Stage MK2 was coming and it would allow for connecting to surround speakers, but could be almost double the price of the existing Stage. Based on the Eclipse speaker.

It's taken a LONG time.

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