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End of audio systems from B&O?

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seethroughyou
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seethroughyou Posted: Fri, Oct 1 2021 10:44 PM
With the move to streaming services, move away from locally stored hard drive music and slow extinction of physical media, are we seeing the end of audio systems from B&O, with the likes of Beocenter 2, Beosound 5/5 Encore and the Moment? I don’t class the Core as an audio system and see it more as a ‘network bridge’ allowing one’s mobile to stream to a Beolab via a Core. I feel sad about where we have ended up. Disappointing that B&O released some novel and lovely looking units like the BS5 and Moment but were doomed to fail as let down by being too old at release or having terrible software issues. I miss the moving glass, aluminium and wood of these products. The black hockey puck/cremated barbecue burger design of Core is abysmal and dull. Where is industrial design of Lewis, Jensen…. It hardly exudes quality and craftsmanship. I’d love to see a new audiomaster that can rip and store CDs (like an Innuos or Auralic), stream from all music providers (not just Deezer), have AirPlay and Chromecast, incorporate Roon and still have the moving glass/aluminium and wood lingerie.

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

The Beonic Man
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While I often visit the forum and read posts; pretty much my nightly routine, I haven’t replied to one for some time now but this particular thread does encourage me to do so as I share your ‘frustration’ if that is the correct word to use in this context.

Many people will already know from many of my past posts that I have always chosen design over functionally although of course, ideally I am looking for both to be exceptional. Like you, and probably many others I love the glass, the use of metals and shapes, the moving parts, the ‘magic’ as we often refer to it and I too miss the iconic designers of the past and what they brought to the table.

I suppose now though I find myself thinking how hard it must be for B&O and the current design team to keep producing outstanding award winning designs as many of us undoubtedly wish them too. With technology changing as much as it has and continues to in this century, are we simply expecting too much? I am not for one minute suggesting there isn’t something else to create or a different design path to explore; rather perhaps how increasingly difficult the challenge must be.

They have, without as shadow of a doubt created some unbelievable products. Personally, I am a huge fan of the BeoCentre 2 although I never actually bought one! But now I might like to. Those wings are just a wonderful design statement as is the beautiful metal surface with that elegant touch sensitive control. I was a huge fan of the BeoVision 5 and ended up buying a BeoVision 9 and then the BeoVision 11-46, which I still use today.

One of my favourite products from B&O (there are many) was the little BeoSound 3, which I loved and used more than any other product probably, literally every day for hours on end. Sadly the design flaw in the top part of the unit let it down and that is the only reason it wasn’t a keeper otherwise I would still be using it today. The BeoSound 9000 of course like many others, I owned and loved; an outstanding product in every way a product can be. In fact it was more than a product, the word ‘product’ doesn’t credit all the effort, craftsmanship and highly skilled workmanship that went into producing such an iconic masterpiece. The BeoSound 2300 was one of the first products I ever bought along with an Avant 32RF tv. I actually bought my Mum an Avant too because she fell in love with mine! Then of course there’s the BeoLink 7000, which for me, holds a special place in my heart because that is the first ever product I saw as a schoolboy walking past a B&O dealership. It was being demonstrated to a customer and I noticed it moving upwards when placed on a flat service as I peered through the window. I was instantly hooked and rushed into the shop to ask if I could also watch the demonstration! They did actually let me and suffice to say my love affair with the company started from that point.

So where does this leave us? I am actually not sure. What do other people think? I have been a harsh critic of B&O at times but only because in the past I also wanted (possibly expected) each new release to be as good or better than the last and to contain all the magic and maybe more but, like I say, I am beginning to realise just what a mammoth task this is so I wait with anticipation and some excitement that I might be totally surprised yet again by the brand I love, but we just don’t know whether that will be the case or not.

If it isn’t, one thing is for sure; nobody could ever take away the many achievements this great company have made. They have already given me so much pleasure over the years and no other brand past or present has ever done that for me, regardless of product. That says a lot I think. I personally think B&O do still have the creativity and they certainly have the know how, nobody would ever question the supreme build quality of their products and attention to detail. OK, they are not all perfectly tested as we can see with The BeoSound 3, Moment and others, which is a shame, but generally the build quality is superb.

I am sure there are some amazing new budding designers out there, probably the younger crowd who are just waiting to have that chance to be heard and given a chance. Hopefully they will find there way to B&O and the company will see their potential and give them the same space and reign they did Lewis and Jensen. It’s a risk, but personally, I think its the risks B&O have taken in the past, which have made them the company they are. They were willing to think outside the box and didn’t live in fear of trying something different.

I’ll conclude by saying that although I haven’t yet bought one, and I might, I do think the Harmony is a fantastic effort as a tv for the modern world given how difficult it must be these days to do something with a square looking piece of glass! The moving speakers are fantastic and the whole tv is in keeping with a typical B&O design and what we all love to see. For me, 2 things stop me going for it, or maybe 3; the size (65” is just too big for my living space), the price (I am more comfortable paying up to £7,000 for the tv, speakers and stand and no more) but mostly, my BV11-46 is perfectly adequate for the time being and I still enjoy it, so need to change just for the sake of it.

Well those are some of my thoughts. It’s good to interact with the forum again and I hope this initiates a little further discussion! Thanks for a good thread title :)

Simon. 

 

BV11-46, BV8-32, V1-32, BS2, P6, A1, H95, E8, BR1, Beo4, Essence

jk1002
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jk1002 replied on Sat, Oct 2 2021 2:56 AM

I feel the Beolb 28 is what is carrying us into the future. And honestly I would buy somehing like that once my Beolab 3 Beolab 2 Sub combo with the essence dies.

I am just hopping for more design options … while I liked the concept I dont like the looks. … 

Also, maybe LP Record player with that could be a thing again …

jk1002
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jk1002 replied on Sat, Oct 2 2021 2:56 AM

I feel the Beolb 28 is what is carrying us into the future. And honestly I would buy somehing like that once my Beolab 3 Beolab 2 Sub combo with the essence dies.

I am just hopping for more design options … while I liked the concept I dont like the looks. … 

Also, maybe LP Record player with that could be a thing again …

jk1002
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jk1002 replied on Sat, Oct 2 2021 2:56 AM

I feel the Beolb 28 is what is carrying us into the future. And honestly I would buy somehing like that once my Beolab 3 Beolab 2 Sub combo with the essence dies.

I am just hopping for more design options … while I liked the concept I dont like the looks. … 

Also, maybe LP Record player with that could be a thing again …

Chris Townsend
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The Beonic Man:

While I often visit the forum and read posts; pretty much my nightly routine, I haven’t replied to one for some time now but this particular thread does encourage me to do so as I share your ‘frustration’ if that is the correct word to use in this context.

Many people will already know from many of my past posts that I have always chosen design over functionally although of course, ideally I am looking for both to be exceptional. Like you, and probably many others I love the glass, the use of metals and shapes, the moving parts, the ‘magic’ as we often refer to it and I too miss the iconic designers of the past and what they brought to the table.

I suppose now though I find myself thinking how hard it must be for B&O and the current design team to keep producing outstanding award winning designs as many of us undoubtedly wish them too. With technology changing as much as it has and continues to in this century, are we simply expecting too much? I am not for one minute suggesting there isn’t something else to create or a different design path to explore; rather perhaps how increasingly difficult the challenge must be.

They have, without as shadow of a doubt created some unbelievable products. Personally, I am a huge fan of the BeoCentre 2 although I never actually bought one! But now I might like to. Those wings are just a wonderful design statement as is the beautiful metal surface with that elegant touch sensitive control. I was a huge fan of the BeoVision 5 and ended up buying a BeoVision 9 and then the BeoVision 11-46, which I still use today.

One of my favourite products from B&O (there are many) was the little BeoSound 3, which I loved and used more than any other product probably, literally every day for hours on end. Sadly the design flaw in the top part of the unit let it down and that is the only reason it wasn’t a keeper otherwise I would still be using it today. The BeoSound 9000 of course like many others, I owned and loved; an outstanding product in every way a product can be. In fact it was more than a product, the word ‘product’ doesn’t credit all the effort, craftsmanship and highly skilled workmanship that went into producing such an iconic masterpiece. The BeoSound 2300 was one of the first products I ever bought along with an Avant 32RF tv. I actually bought my Mum an Avant too because she fell in love with mine! Then of course there’s the BeoLink 7000, which for me, holds a special place in my heart because that is the first ever product I saw as a schoolboy walking past a B&O dealership. It was being demonstrated to a customer and I noticed it moving upwards when placed on a flat service as I peered through the window. I was instantly hooked and rushed into the shop to ask if I could also watch the demonstration! They did actually let me and suffice to say my love affair with the company started from that point.

So where does this leave us? I am actually not sure. What do other people think? I have been a harsh critic of B&O at times but only because in the past I also wanted (possibly expected) each new release to be as good or better than the last and to contain all the magic and maybe more but, like I say, I am beginning to realise just what a mammoth task this is so I wait with anticipation and some excitement that I might be totally surprised yet again by the brand I love, but we just don’t know whether that will be the case or not.

If it isn’t, one thing is for sure; nobody could ever take away the many achievements this great company have made. They have already given me so much pleasure over the years and no other brand past or present has ever done that for me, regardless of product. That says a lot I think. I personally think B&O do still have the creativity and they certainly have the know how, nobody would ever question the supreme build quality of their products and attention to detail. OK, they are not all perfectly tested as we can see with The BeoSound 3, Moment and others, which is a shame, but generally the build quality is superb.

I am sure there are some amazing new budding designers out there, probably the younger crowd who are just waiting to have that chance to be heard and given a chance. Hopefully they will find there way to B&O and the company will see their potential and give them the same space and reign they did Lewis and Jensen. It’s a risk, but personally, I think its the risks B&O have taken in the past, which have made them the company they are. They were willing to think outside the box and didn’t live in fear of trying something different.

I’ll conclude by saying that although I haven’t yet bought one, and I might, I do think the Harmony is a fantastic effort as a tv for the modern world given how difficult it must be these days to do something with a square looking piece of glass! The moving speakers are fantastic and the whole tv is in keeping with a typical B&O design and what we all love to see. For me, 2 things stop me going for it, or maybe 3; the size (65” is just too big for my living space), the price (I am more comfortable paying up to £7,000 for the tv, speakers and stand and no more) but mostly, my BV11-46 is perfectly adequate for the time being and I still enjoy it, so need to change just for the sake of it.

Well those are some of my thoughts. It’s good to interact with the forum again and I hope this initiates a little further discussion! Thanks for a good thread title :)

Simon.

BV11-46, BV8-32, V1-32, BS2, P6, A1, H95, E8, BR1, Beo4, Essence

Very good post. I think the Level is a very good compromise with its looks, sound and upgradeability. It still harks back to the classic David Lewis era in places.

I almost bought one until I heard it next to the stage which here is almost the same price. They’re different products I know, but it’ll just be for my living room.

Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.

mbee
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mbee replied on Sat, Oct 2 2021 1:08 PM

This lack of something physical, something to touch and to see is exactly why Bang&Olufsen is now showcasing its latest Beolab 28 (you even don’t need a Core as every streaming solution is integrated to the speaker) with good old Beogram 4002! Look at music stores, they are full of vinyls in 2021!

After the Moment B&O has shown they are completely incapable of competing as they just aren't good at software.  We don't need music systems from them anymore, you can do the same thing with other cheaper and better solutions from other manufacturers that you can hook your B&O speakers up to.

On the other side the Halo COULD have been that system but they screwed that one up too sadly.

--

BeoLab 18's. Beolab 3's. A8. A9. A2. H7.

Carolpa
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Carolpa replied on Sat, Oct 2 2021 5:01 PM

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
We don't need music systems from them anymore
Your opinion, but don't speak for me.......

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
they just aren't good at software
there were times I would have agreed....

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
cheaper and better solutions from other manufacturers
cheaper, sure, but always better??

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
On the other side the Halo COULD have been that system but they screwed that one up too sadly.
How could a remote be an audio system?

So tell, how many time did you really spent with and/or used a Moment or Halo? or were this just impressions at a dealers?

 

 

seethroughyou
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Irrespective of wondering how moving glass, aluminium and wood might seem, in a world dominated by streaming and software, I think B&O should stick to their guns and still incorporate these aspects even if it seems from a logical perspective a bit superfluous. It didn’t stop them moving aluminium and wood on the Beovision Harmony, a very fine example and something David Lewis and Jacob Jensen would have been proud of. The brain is half logical supercomputer and half an organ of emotion exercised in subconscious processes. It would a funeral of B&O, if they went the way of Apple and left everything to a soulless tablet. They need to find an industrial designer who knows how to incorporate moving glass, aluminium and wood in an aesthetic and functional way. B&O have always gone against the grain and done things differently. Why should they follow the tablet tapping sheep around the world…?? People love movement. Music flows and changes and so should a B&O piece. I don’t want a hockey puck or a cremated beef burger of a Beosound Core. Stop conforming. I don’t want what others expect or do, that’s why I fell in love with B&O in 2000. I realise this might be wishful thinking on my part and something that B&O have no appetite for.

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Sun, Oct 3 2021 9:12 AM
seethroughyou:

Irrespective of wondering how moving glass, aluminium and wood might seem, in a world dominated by streaming and software, I think B&O should stick to their guns and still incorporate these aspects even if it seems from a logical perspective a bit superfluous. It didn’t stop them moving aluminium and wood on the Beovision Harmony, a very fine example and something David Lewis and Jacob Jensen would have been proud of. The brain is half logical supercomputer and half an organ of emotion exercised in subconscious processes. It would a funeral of B&O, if they went the way of Apple and left everything to a soulless tablet. They need to find an industrial designer who knows how to incorporate moving glass, aluminium and wood in an aesthetic and functional way. B&O have always gone against the grain and done things differently. Why should they follow the tablet tapping sheep around the world…?? People love movement. Music flows and changes and so should a B&O piece. I don’t want a hockey puck or a cremated beef burger of a Beosound Core. Stop conforming. I don’t want what others expect or do, that’s why I fell in love with B&O in 2000. I realise this might be wishful thinking on my part and something that B&O have no appetite for. Present: BL90, Beosound Moment, Beosound Core, BL6000, Beogram CD7000, Beogram 7000, BS Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, Beocenter 2, Beosound 5, BV5, BV4-50, BV4-65, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

I’d only be interested in a B&O audio system if it integrated a fuller range of music services, and provided a more fully featured control / browsing app experience. Other brands get there, or close enough.

From there, by all means design something aesthetically magical, be that for the audio master “box” or more likely the control device, and then the price premium becomes much easier to justify.

But we all know that B&O wont or cant tick both of the above boxes.

The Halo is flawed,even as a remote control. The screen is too small for browsing, and if you’re not a Deezer user, its close to useless.

Long story short, they are miles away from doing anything that would lure me back into using their interfaces / control points for music. Roon and my Linn streamer cover everything for me - hell, even the Linn app shows me most of my podcasts from TuneIn!

seethroughyou
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Good point.

What would my feature shopping list look like?

1. Wood to blend into a living room and not be an eye sore.

2. Physical controls for essential features such as source selection, on/off, volume, track forward/back such as found on BC2 and Moment.

3. Large high quality capacitive OLED with variable brightness, using B&O fonts and black background. None of that multi-coloured Android nonsense.

4. CD/SACD drive to play instantly or rip.

5. SSD installable by end-user in slot.

6. Internet radio not reliant on 3rd party using B&O's own radio registry.

7. Roon (if Roon oblige)

8. Powerlink in and out. HMDI in and out.

9. TOSLINK in and out, RCA line in/out, balanced XLR in/out.

10. High quality analog section on DAC. DSD to PCM conversion.

11. Upsampling for likes of BL90.

12. Backwards Masterlink, Network link compatible with PUC codes.

13. Large catalogue of streaming services: Qbuz, Tidal, Deezer, Spotify, Primephonic, Apple, Mixcloud, Soundcloud, Apple Music and future extendable with software updates.

14. Powerful processor to prevent hardware delays, glitches.

15. Powerful and robust Wifi and Bluetooth, high quality wifi aerial etc.. to prevent "can not connect with network".

16. USB port at rear if you prefer connecting a drive with your own music.

17. Windows and MAC compatible so you can drag and drop music from your NAS, desktop into B&O's drive.

18. Ability to pull art work off the web and edit on the fly like Roon does.

The Hifi Rose is close to the ultimate streamer but of course lacks the B&O magic and design.

I know people will pipe up and say but B&O is too small a company and can't do it. Well Citech Co., Ltd based in South Korea is minuscule by B&O standards and works from small unit in an industrial park:

B&O:

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Millemissen
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seethroughyou:
Good point.

 

What would my feature shopping list look like?

 

 

1. Wood to blend into a living room and not be an eye sore.

 

2. Physical controls for essential features such as source selection, on/off, volume, track forward/back such as found on BC2 and Moment.

 

3. Large high quality capacitive OLED with variable brightness, using B&O fonts and black background. None of that multi-coloured Android nonsense.

 

4. CD/SACD drive to play instantly or rip.

 

5. SSD installable by end-user in slot.

 

6. Internet radio not reliant on 3rd party using B&O's own radio registry.

 

7. Roon (if Roon oblige)

 

8. Powerlink in and out. HMDI in and out.

 

9. TOSLINK in and out, RCA line in/out, balanced XLR in/out.

 

10. High quality analog section on DAC. DSD to PCM conversion.

 

11. Upsampling for likes of BL90.

 

12. Backwards Masterlink, Network link compatible with PUC codes.

 

13. Large catalogue of streaming services: Qbuz, Tidal, Deezer, Spotify, Primephonic, Apple, Mixcloud, Soundcloud, Apple Music and future extendable with software updates.

 

14. Powerful processor to prevent hardware delays, glitches.

 

15. Powerful and robust Wifi and Bluetooth, high quality wifi aerial etc.. to prevent "can not connect with network".

 

16. USB port at rear if you prefer connecting a drive with your own music.

 

17. Windows and MAC compatible so you can drag and drop music from your NAS, desktop into B&O's drive.

 

18. Ability to pull art work off the web and edit on the fly like Roon does.

Geez!

You are a high flying bird Unsure

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Millemissen
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Sandyb:

 

Long story short, they are miles away from doing anything that would lure me back into using their interfaces / control points for music. Roon and my Linn streamer cover everything for me - hell, even the Linn app shows me most of my podcasts from TuneIn!

 

But aren’t you then doing exactly what seethroughyou does not want to do?

Every audio system solution today I know of, involves a tablet of some kind, be it an iPad or an Android one for the user interface.

There might be some exclusive ones with a proprietary ‘screen’, but these then will be ridiculous expensive or only have a smaller display on the ‘box’ itself.

 

B&O has tried making their own version of a modern audio device twice:

1: the BS5, which was indeed extremely good…..up to the point where the choosen underlaying platform could not support the music services that became more and more important.

2: the BS Moment, which imo was a brilliant solution…..untill people wanted it to be able to do more than it was supposed to do.

 

Honestly - I don’t think that B&O will ever again try to come up with a proprietary solution for an audiosystem.

The user behaviour, need for this and that (which might include one or more streaming services, physical media/some also want support for UHD bluray discs/HDMI) amongst the B&O costumers is simply too diverse for that.

For my needs (and many will agree) the use of a ‘non-B&O tablet’ - e.g. an iPad is more than sufficient…..just make sure that you use this exclusively for the ‘audio purpose’.

As for the box needed/the hardware (the core of the setup)…..why not just hide it away - I am pretty sure that there would be no need for something that also could rip CD’s (there are other ways to do this for those who prefer that).

If all you need is a ‘black box’, I see no need to slap some wood or alu on that….I prefer it tugged away (like in a Shape setup etc).

And why go for a ‘black box’ with a display, when the majority want to have the display at hand, on the couch table….anyway.

They tried that with Moment and we all know how that went…..the time is over for that - way too much efford just suit a few affectionate B&O buyers.

 

So, in short - to answer the question of seethroughyou - yes, the time for an ‘audio system from B&O’ is over.

It seems that B&O at the moment is putting very much efford into the realizing of B&O as a whole house brand (see the latest updates of the BLI etc).

Indeed I am much more concerned about a coherent setup of all audio and video devices in my house (and I know a lot who wish the same for their home

automation devices as well) than about an excotic audio player.

There are plenty of devices out there that can offer that……..if you are just into getting the best sound from your high class B&O speakers - it seems that Sandy has found one.

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

seethroughyou
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Millemissen:

Geez!

You are a high flying bird

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Not really, if a handful of people in a small unit in Korea can tick a lot on that list, I’m sure B&O’s bigger resources can do better. If they do it right, they could steal customers from Naim, Innuos, Auralic etc…

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Sun, Oct 3 2021 12:37 PM

Exactly - much of your list, though by no means all, is covered by other brands high end streamer (or streamer / DACs).

If B&O could provide a similar coverage and add a cool control point, they would / could justify a decent price.

Not an easy challenge I admit, but the low ambition of an Airplay / CC approach demonstrates the distance between where they are now, and where covering a good deal of your list would have them.

In my phone interview / survey I did with them (albeit it was very brief), I made the point to them that the money I spent on my Roon Nucleus and Linn streamer (lets call it 6500GBP new price in aggregate) was money I would have been happy to give them, given the right product and capabilities.

 

 

seethroughyou:
Millemissen:

 

Geez!

 

You are a high flying bird

 

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

 

 

 

 

Not really, if a handful of people in a small unit in Korea can tick a lot on that list, I’m sure B&O’s bigger resources can do better. If they do it right, they could steal customers from Naim, Innuos, Auralic etc…

 

Millemissen
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seethroughyou:
Millemissen:

Geez!

You are a high flying bird

MM

Not really, if a handful of people in a small unit in Korea can tick a lot on that list, I’m sure B&O’s bigger resources can do better. If they do it right, they could steal customers from Naim, Innuos, Auralic etc…

You mean something like this from here:

https://eng.hifirose.com/

I must admit, that I am much more impressed by what I see in the BeoHome in the Innovation Lab in Struer.

 

By the way….the Rose OS Ver 1.22.4 is based on Customized Android 7.1 Whistle


There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Mr 10Percent
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I have made my views known to this forum and to B&O directly. This includes signing NDAs on some of their product development (not audio sources) surveys.

With regard to audio sources, I think there is a degree of either laziness or lack of will (perception of market demand??).

1.      B&O should have had a high level audio source in the pipeline with the Beolab90s. They went for the in-built solution in the TVs with Deezer/Spotify/Powerlink (Analogue). This is unforgivable in my view.

2.      As a plus, both the BL90 and 50 enable multiple input routes not limited to Powerlink and line-in (which frankly are very 19th century). This should be expanded to all Beolabs

3.      What is lacking is either a white-hot audio device or at century converter.

4.      Most audiophile streamers that I investigated all work the same way and have pretty much a generic ipad/tablet interface (Niam, Linn, Kazoo, Melco, Auralic, Aurender, PS audio etc…). They will have a propriety aspect to the hardware, firmware and interface but they are not a million miles apart.

5.      In my mind, given the size of these companies (Niam, Linn, Auralic, Aurender, PS audio), B&O is probably bigger then all combined. B&O is not insignificant consumer electronics company. Sure, it is small vs LG, Sony, Philips, etc…..but these smaller companies can make a regular pipeline of products and eek-out a reasonable existence in this sector – why cant B&O?

6.      I think the BS5 and Moment were good products and excellent USP’s dogged by B&O’s own internal arrogance and wanting to do things their own-way (as opposed to following what the collective industry was doing) and inevitably going down an evolutionary dead-end.

7.      I think if B&O were to go into association with one of these companies (I’m into the Auralic G2 ecosystem) and do a BS5 bolt-on type product (i.e. a basic PC board with bolt-on proprietary B&O input/output), I think this would go a long way? The costs would not be prohibitive as most of the Streamer would be developed by the donor Company.

8.      It would tick a number of boxes – high quality streaming, qobuz/tidal, DNLA compatibility, B&O control, perhaps a return to USPs like MOTS etc….which these specialist Companies do not implement.

9.      All the core hifi standards will be installed in the donor models. Regular ethernet updates could be beamed into the hardware and tested/understood in terms of the interface etc….

10.   There would be a solid firmware and User Interface from the donor Company and be sufficiently stable for B&O to build on top of that with confidence.

It is in my mind all-do-able. It just seems that B&O don’t have the will – or know that if they embark on this product segment, inevitably, design and cost and time overruns etc….will kill the product financially before its released – and therefore choose to stay away from it?

 

10

 

 

seethroughyou
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Millemissen:

You mean something like this from here:

https://eng.hifirose.com/

I must admit, that I am much more impressed by what I see in the BeoHome in the Innovation Lab in Struer.

By the way….the Rose OS Ver 1.22.4 is based on Customized Android 7.1

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

I’m not a fan of the Rose. It’s ugly. Think you’re missing the point. What I’m saying is that B&O could easily come up with something better but the inclination perhaps isn’t there after that BS5 and Moment.

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Sun, Oct 3 2021 10:34 PM
We didn’t get to it, we did a deep dive into the new Halo and BLI functions and also the Mozart platform updates. I’ll keep it in mind for next week!

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 28's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia

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Old: Beosound 9000 mk3, Beolab 3's, Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.

Millemissen
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seethroughyou:
Millemissen:

You mean something like this from here:

https://eng.hifirose.com/

I must admit, that I am much more impressed by what I see in the BeoHome in the Innovation Lab in Struer.

By the way….the Rose OS Ver 1.22.4 is based on Customized Android 7.1

I’m not a fan of the Rose. It’s ugly. Think you’re missing the point. What I’m saying is that B&O could easily come up with something better but the inclination perhaps isn’t there after that BS5 and Moment.

I choose that product, because you - in one of your posts - mentioned:
Citech Co., Ltd based in South Korea is minuscule by B&O standards and works from small unit in an industrial park:’

So….what do that company do/make, that made it worth for you to mention it?

 

No, I am not missing the point - for obvious reasons they won’t come up with ‘something better’….so we agree.

The difference between us, is that you still dream it - I have realized that it is not worth wasting thoughts on that subject.

I guess the wast majority of the B&O costumers can live happily without devices like that.

And those who can’t will find their way….and choose something, that suits them and their user behaviour.

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Mon, Oct 4 2021 1:13 AM

Sure, there are non B&O solutions available, and I use a fairly straightforward one.

Thats all money that could have gone to B&O with the right product offering though.  An audio master does not need to be fancy I agree, but it should include a broader range of streaming services. Other small companies do it - which is the most salient point made above.  Then, any Halo like device becomes more inviting and inclusive. As it stands, its poor for music, rising not far above novelty. 

In other words, putting more services into a Core like box, and make a more browsing friendly Halo and many of those who hanker for an audio master would be much happier.  Not a big stretch from where they are - but I agree, they wont.

I've just ordered a Linn LP12 turntable - add that to the Linn streamer, and thats around 9-10k B&O could have had from me.

Its no wonder that the share price goes nowhere, and that few investors pay much attention to their growth prospects.

 

 

 

 

Millemissen:

Sandyb:

 

Long story short, they are miles away from doing anything that would lure me back into using their interfaces / control points for music. Roon and my Linn streamer cover everything for me - hell, even the Linn app shows me most of my podcasts from TuneIn!

 

But aren’t you then doing exactly what seethroughyou does not want to do?

Every audio system solution today I know of, involves a tablet of some kind, be it an iPad or an Android one for the user interface.

There might be some exclusive ones with a proprietary ‘screen’, but these then will be ridiculous expensive or only have a smaller display on the ‘box’ itself.

 

B&O has tried making their own version of a modern audio device twice:

1: the BS5, which was indeed extremely good…..up to the point where the choosen underlaying platform could not support the music services that became more and more important.

2: the BS Moment, which imo was a brilliant solution…..untill people wanted it to be able to do more than it was supposed to do.

 

Honestly - I don’t think that B&O will ever again try to come up with a proprietary solution for an audiosystem.

The user behaviour, need for this and that (which might include one or more streaming services, physical media/some also want support for UHD bluray discs/HDMI) amongst the B&O costumers is simply too diverse for that.

For my needs (and many will agree) the use of a ‘non-B&O tablet’ - e.g. an iPad is more than sufficient…..just make sure that you use this exclusively for the ‘audio purpose’.

As for the box needed/the hardware (the core of the setup)…..why not just hide it away - I am pretty sure that there would be no need for something that also could rip CD’s (there are other ways to do this for those who prefer that).

If all you need is a ‘black box’, I see no need to slap some wood or alu on that….I prefer it tugged away (like in a Shape setup etc).

And why go for a ‘black box’ with a display, when the majority want to have the display at hand, on the couch table….anyway.

They tried that with Moment and we all know how that went…..the time is over for that - way too much efford just suit a few affectionate B&O buyers.

 

So, in short - to answer the question of seethroughyou - yes, the time for an ‘audio system from B&O’ is over.

It seems that B&O at the moment is putting very much efford into the realizing of B&O as a whole house brand (see the latest updates of the BLI etc).

Indeed I am much more concerned about a coherent setup of all audio and video devices in my house (and I know a lot who wish the same for their home

automation devices as well) than about an excotic audio player.

There are plenty of devices out there that can offer that……..if you are just into getting the best sound from your high class B&O speakers - it seems that Sandy has found one.

 

MM

 

Millemissen
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In order to answer a question like: ‘should B&O make a new audio system’, you of course first have to define what an ‘audio system’ is (in 2021).

When I read the list that seethroughyou presented in this thread I was over and out…..that is way too much to expect from B&O…..they focus on other, simpler solutions - always did. 
B&O is not and never was an audiophile brand.

So the task would be to decide, what that ‘audio system’ should be able to do - I guess the beoworlders would not be able to agree which of these features to include and which not. It certainly also would be hard for the more audiophile beoworlders to agree on which of these features B&O should include.

 

(@Sandyb) It is very easy to say, that B&O could have had the money you have spend on the Linn devices (by the way, why didn’t you buy a Beogram and had it refurbished by B&O?). That money and similar from a few others - if you could agree on the featureset of a B&O device - would not be proportinal to what B&O would have to invest in such a project.

And don’t ever think that B&O should try to steal customers from Naim, Innuos, Auralic etc…

The way that B&O think, is way too different to convince the audiophile community.

 

Enough said - I have made my points.

Would be nice to hear how others think - maybe a discussion in a next Beotalk can bring other aspects.

But please - first define ‘an audio system’…..otherweise it will be hard to vote Yes or No to the need for a ‘new audio system from B&O’.


MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

seethroughyou
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Millemissen:

In order to answer a question like: ‘should B&O make a new audio system’, you of course first have to define what an ‘audio system’ is ( in 2021 ).

You really need me to define what an audio system is?? Can you not look around and see what is successful, loved, well reviewed and bought in good quantities (unlike B&O) to ‘define’ what people use in 2021.

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Millemissen
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seethroughyou:
Millemissen:

 

In order to answer a question like: ‘should B&O make a new audio system’, you of course first have to define what an ‘audio system’ is ( in 2021 ).

 

You really need me to define what an audio system is?? Can you not look around and see what is successful, loved, well reviewed and bought in good quantities (unlike B&O) to ‘define’ what people use in 2021.

Yes, I do - I don’t see it…..especially not when I think of what you expect from a (B&O) audio system…..as expressed here.

Please let me know, if there is something out there, that can work with a Join command to my BV.

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Carolpa:

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
cheaper and better solutions from other manufacturers
cheaper, sure, but always better??

Severed_Hand_of_Skywalker:
On the other side the Halo COULD have been that system but they screwed that one up too sadly.
How could a remote be an audio system?

So tell, how many time did you really spent with and/or used a Moment or Halo? or were this just impressions at a dealers?

Yes there are cheaper and better solutions. They just don't put the focus purely on design so they work better but admittedly don't look as pretty. 

How much time did I spend with the Halo? 30 seconds. After that the demo was done as you can only do 4 things with it. Volume, preset, source, device. $1000 USD please.

As for the moment... I spent about 30 min with the dealer. Every feature he showed me my response was "Why can't I do that with an iPad and cheap NAS?"  He was never able to answer that question. The Moment was $5000 USD. I could do the exact same thing with a $300 NAS and for the same price buy 20 pads for every corner of the room.

And how can a Halo be a music system. Super easy. Have onboard storage like every iPad or Cellphone does, use SD cards even. 

But like everyone else these days, people use online services for the most part. So all the Halo needs to do is act like a $30 Google home/Alexia and just have a built in mic to take requests to play online music.  If you want to get fancy then internal Halo storage could hold your own music.  Extra fancy would be a hub with local storage and the halo's act as remotes to control the content. 

--

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vikinger
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B&O is now just one of hundreds of companies producing adequate + hi fi equipment. Their USP of hiding the mundane electronics or bulky CRT's behind great design are long gone. In fact the electronics have now become so miniaturised that they could be hidden in almost any piece of artistic design.

So B&O must reinvent itself and diversify into all sorts of good furniture and/or home products. The last 'Big' items not yet successfully shrunk by anyone are speakers. B&O need to keep speaker design going.

9 LEE
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9 LEE replied on Tue, Oct 5 2021 12:44 AM

Millemissen:

B&O is not and never was an audiophile brand.

MM

Really? 

seethroughyou
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Very much audiophile prices rather than Sonos/Alexa prices.

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Moment, Core, BL6000, CD7000, 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4.

.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Tue, Oct 5 2021 8:27 AM

The issue is that many regard them as a design-led audio brand, and are not really given much attention by the hardcore audiophile community.

The use of the word audiophile though is unhelpful. Most here are not audio-fools as it were, obsessing about power conditioners, suspending cables off the floor etc etc. Most are here because they value aesthetics and design at least as much.

But there are definitely some here who want both the aesthetics / design and some good coverage of modern media services / formats.

Here is where the disconnect is. We've gone from only Deezer integrated to now, seemingly, nothing integrated (bar B&O Radio), leaving Airplay / CC / Spotify as options. Also gone is any app native access to local music.  Here, many other brands provide more coverage, and comparably priced brands offer more options.

Workarounds are always possible - I use Roon and a Linn streamer - but the point that some here dont appreciate is that workarounds have knock on effects, as they take you out of the B&O workflow / ecosystem.   In my case, no Halo for me then, etc etc.  

I used to look at my BV and surrounding Beolabs and think - ok, how the hell do I play some music? (no Moment, no BS5 anymore)

Thats a curious and poor situation - and that I sorted a solution with 3rd party equipment is not ideal, hybrid ecosystems limiting what else they can sell me.

 

 

seethroughyou:
Very much audiophile prices rather than Sonos/Alexa prices.

 

Mr 10Percent
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After reading this thread I did a little casual A/B testing on my Flac files.

1.      BV Eclipse feeding BL90s via Powerlink from a Melco N1 Music Server

2.      Auralic Aries G2 feeding BL90 via USB from a Melco N1 Music Server

Just so were clear…this (2) is absolutely night and day in terms of dynamics, musicality whatever over (1).

Night and day.

 

Now taking the common factors out, an Auralic Aries G2 (with Lightning Link) is £4k. However, the G1 which is sonically the same but without the Link is half that. Both have internal HDD bays for X Gb if that is what you want.

If I recall correctly, the moment was cruising at £1800-2000. So were not talking polar opposites. The Auralic is built like a tank (milled Al mono-chassis and good RFI isolation).

 

I think we have to get past what is on offer in terms of sources and services from B&O as “Adequate”. 

It is not.

It is (has fallen) falling seriously behind to a point that should raise a lot of questions from us all.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Tue, Oct 5 2021 11:28 AM
Mr 10Percent:

After reading this thread I did a little casual A/B testing on my Flac files.

1. BV Eclipse feeding BL90s via Powerlink from a Melco N1 Music Server

2. Auralic Aries G2 feeding BL90 via USB from a Melco N1 Music Server

Just so were clear…this (2) is absolutely night and day in terms of dynamics, musicality whatever over (1).

Night and day.

Now taking the common factors out, an Auralic Aries G2 (with Lightning Link) is £4k. However, the G1 which is sonically the same but without the Link is half that. Both have internal HDD bays for X Gb if that is what you want.

If I recall correctly, the moment was cruising at £1800-2000. So were not talking polar opposites. The Auralic is built like a tank (milled Al mono-chassis and good RFI isolation).

I think we have to get past what is on offer in terms of sources and services from B&O as “Adequate”.

It is not.

It is (has fallen) falling seriously behind to a point that should raise a lot of questions from us all.

Same with my Linn streamer - much better direct into my 50’s vs going via my BV

Michael
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Michael replied on Tue, Oct 5 2021 3:00 PM
I haven’t used a CD or vinyl as primary medium for decades now. I mainly play music from my phone or other computers.

The music however is reproduced by the magical speakers from Bang & Olufsen and I don’t think that is a bad thing.

Why put devices that takes up space when not necessary any more? Much easier to just not have a music station visible if not necessary and if necessary then it shall be beautiful and intriguing to use.

Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, 
BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, 
BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, 
BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, 
BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)  

cooldude
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I bought a beosound 5 last year and it's now my favourite piece of B&O.
My internet is fairly wonky because of construction in my neighbourhood so streaming is just not dependable. It will be like this for another year at least.

Once our workday is over, both me and my wife stop using our phones. We have a landline for talking to family and friends.
Last thing we want to do is spend more time on small screens.

I would love B&O to take something like an Auralic with its capabilities and put it in a BS5.
What I love is the physical interface and the cover art it shows while playing. It's just a nice little bit of kit.
Since working from home, the BS5 is on in the background from 6.30AM to about 7pm. Every day. Playing radio in the morning, in the afternoon my library of songs or the Amazon Echo plugged into it if we want to stream from the service of our choice.

Nothing is perfect, but this works well enough for us, true audiophile will never be happy with anything. 
Been there, done that, got over it. 

 

 

 

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Tue, Oct 5 2021 4:35 PM

Not arguing about physical media, thats not the point being debated.

Its about them offering a more fully featured streaming transport (i.e a Core type box), and alongside a more browsing friendly Halo type of control interface, wrapped in a cool B&O design. There are clearly those who would value at least the latter.

After all, they do both of these already - just pretty restrictive (the Core), and pretty limited (the Halo).

Streaming from a phone is perfectly fine with the single point speakers (A9, Balance, BS1,2 etc etc).

Once you have Beolabs,. especially the more expensive ones, they should offer something to complement the experience of 10 / 20 / 30 / 50 thousand pound speakers.

 

 

Michael:
I haven’t used a CD or vinyl as primary medium for decades now. I mainly play music from my phone or other computers.

 

 

The music however is reproduced by the magical speakers from Bang & Olufsen and I don’t think that is a bad thing.

 

 

Why put devices that takes up space when not necessary any more? Much easier to just not have a music station visible if not necessary and if necessary then it shall be beautiful and intriguing to use.

 

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