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Beogram 3000 Type 5228 too slow

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kimvdk
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kimvdk posted on Mon, Jan 18 2021 9:57 PM

Hi,

I inherited this beautfil turntable from my father. He bought it new in the 70's and it has been in their home (in a warm room) until I got it. The turntable stood unused for 20 years.

However, it does suffer from the same problem with the bearings I read about many times on this site. Before I realized that, I bught a new idler wheel and rubber belt as the rubber on the old idler wheel was hard and it gave a rubbing noise when pressed against the step puley.

I disassembled the motor according to the nice walk through that I found on this site. I put the bearings in acetone for 24h in order to dissolve the old gunk. There was plenty of gunk/dirt in the acetone when I was finished.

After that I prepared the oil infusion process by filling a small transparent glass bottle half way with SAE30 oil (Castrol Classic XL 30 - SAE30, https://www.oliebiksen.dk/shop/castrol-classic-xl-2660p.html). I fitted a wine vacuum plug and made a vacuum. Then the air started to free from the bearings - that process went on for several hours. The bottle was kept in the oven by 80 degr. C. Another 24h later I released the vacuum and removed the bearings after a couple of hours.

While infusing the bearings, I also soaked both "felt rings" in oil:

(picture taken before the oiling process)

Everything went fine so far. So I fitted everything backwards and adjusted the step puley so the 33 rpm mode could touch the widest part of the puley (for maximum speed if needed).

I have now tried the turntable over several days and the symtoms are all the same: It starts up too slow at about 30-31 rpm. After 25-30 min. it can go up to 33 1/3 rpm (and higher), which of course tells me that something is still wrong. However, I don't think there is too much friction in the motor, because when I cut the power (idler wheel not touching the puley), it doesn't stop immediately but keeps going a couple of seconds before stopping. Also I can very easily spin it with my fingers.

So, do you have any clue of what I should do now?

I have some suggestions myself (but I would really like your opinion instead of shooting in blind):

* Wrong oil used

* Infusing process gone wrong

* Misalignment of the bearings (how can I tell?)

* Maybe the felt sourrounding the bearings should be replaced? Should I also clean those with acetone?

* Some other parts of the turntable? But everything is moving very smoothly - also the little nylon piece on the speed adjustment arm is still on 

I really hope someone can help me here :)

 

Best regards from Denmark,

Kim

 

 

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Dillen
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Dillen replied on Fri, Jan 22 2021 3:04 PM

The gradually increasing speed (as bearings warm up) points to the oiling.
You can't be safe that all modern SAE30 oils has the right additives needed.

Martin

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Fri, Jan 22 2021 7:22 PM

Hi

Today I went trough a couple of things.

Regading your suggestions:

1) Leverarm still has the small plastic/cork piece, so I think it is fine. Idler wheel is spinning without any kind of noise.

and

2) Furthermore a new rubber belt and idler wheel bought from Martin was already fitted before the oil infusion.

3) I disassembled the motor again to have a look. I removed and refitted the lower bearing tighter to the bottom (it could go down furthermore a very little bit when looking at the two small metal taps on the backside).

Bottom:

Top:

And a drop of oil was added to the bottom bearing housing where the shaft ends - just in case.

After all this I reassembled, and this time there was some improvement. It is almost completely silent (you have to put the ear down to hear anything and only very faint). And the best part - it was going up to playable speed in 5-10 min.

4) Regarding the oil. I have a strong feeling that the final solution would be another reoiling of the bearings. Martin, which oil do you suggest? Can I buy it here in Denmark?

I assume that I should repeat the cleaning of the bearings (as well as the felt ring this time) in acetone again?

Thank you everybody for all your good suggestions and support. I'm learning a lot from you.

Have a nice weekend.

Kim

Spassmaker
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@ Menahem

This is excactly what I ment now with picture.

Maybe the material of the tip is sometimes plastic and sometimes cork.

Kind regards Christian

 

 

 

Dillen
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Dillen replied on Sat, Jan 23 2021 1:00 PM

I use Mobil Velocite 6 (spindle oil) for sinter bearings.

I think the tip material is some kind of teflon but I haven't analyzed it.

Martin

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Sat, Jan 23 2021 1:38 PM

Thanks. So I ordered Mobil Velocite 6 oil from UK - should be arriving before 10th of February..

I wonder if I should clean the bearings in acetone again? As well as the felt rings?

Kim

Dillen
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Dillen replied on Sat, Jan 23 2021 1:43 PM

I would do that.

Martin   

kimvdk
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So... the problem is now resolved completely Big Smile

I went through the whole cleaning process with acetone again (this time also including the felt rings). After I received the new oil that Martin suggested, I did the same oiling of the bearings in vacuum for 24 hours and another 24 hours in the oil without the vacuum.

The result was instant - the turnplate turns to correct speed within seconds. It is incredible how much difference the oil means to the speed. I immediately noticed the difference in the oil. The Mobil Veolcite no 6 oil is very thin and without much colour to it (the SAE30 I used before was much thicker and more brownish).

A huge thanks to all for their help - I have a very clean machine now - especially on the inside :-)

Kim

Menahem Yachad
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Kim 

Fantastic.

I learnt something new here!

I guess I've been lucky in my overhauls, using a no-name lightweight synthetic oil.

Enjoy your TT - it's a superb unit - one of my 3 keepers (BG3000, BG4000, BG4002 AC)

Menahem

Guillaume
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Hello

i had this problem with my Beogram....

Cleaned every parts (supposed to be oiled) with white spirit, living parts for a long night swimming Big Smile

then tried many oils... took me a lot of time, tests, cleanings again etc...

Fistly I tried with Wd40 : runs good but after 2 lp speed became slow

tried sewing machine oil : was slooooooowwwww

tried Vaseline oil : was running really good but after a couple of weeks the oil dried, was kind of cocked...

tried the oil of my motorcycle: 20w40 ... it’s running really good since March 2020...

i guess for sure the sae30 is too greasy for this motor...

looking at your picture I see a spring which is really bent, consequence: you motor may be in direct contact with the turntable, you probably ear an ugly noise when you are close to your turntable... and ear another ugly noise coming from your speakers... you may have to take to that spring.

... next step : ENJOY 😉 🤗

matador43
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Hi kimvdk,

First of all, congratulation in sorting out your speed problem and facing the re-oiling process.
I have various motor bearings which would need the same care but I'am a little afraid of jumping in it.

Please would you mind deytailling a little bit your way of infusing it and share a picture of your vaccum setup?
You wrote you used a wine vaccum pump: is it a high end or the little pumps sold for cheap on eBay?

You also wrote about the oven: did you leave the bottle in it turned on, during the the whole 24 hours process?

Thank you for your enlightenments.

matador43
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Hi Martin,

Can the remaining oil be use again or is it "contaminated" in any way and must be discarded?

And if so: is it possible to treat various bearing in the same vacuum, with the risk of mixing them?
or are they speciffically sized foe each motor?

Last question: I often see large bottle, half filled with very little bearing inside. Is it necessary to use that much oil or just a bit more than needed to drawn the pearls is enough?

Thank you.

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Sun, Feb 7 2021 12:53 PM

Menahem - thanks. I really appreciate the TT. It was my fathers when new, and he recently gave it to me when it had stood still for 20+ years of no use. It means a lot to me as I can remember it from my early childhood (where I accidently broke the stylus at an age of 3 years :)

Guillaume - yeah, the TT is definitely very senitive to the oil being used. Thanks for pointing out the bent spring. I already fixed it. Actually, after the last oiling process and reassembling the TT is a little bit noisy when I put my ear close to it. I might have to take a look again if anything is slightly off spec

- matador43 - actually it was not that hard. When I did the disassembling the first time, I was a bit nervous. But I followed Saint Beogrowlers thread:

https://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/30994/248088.aspx

It is very good and precise. Just don't use the SAE30 oil and do also clean the felt located inside the bearing housings.

I don't have other pictures than the ones provided in this thread. The vacuum pump is a "qualitity" one bought from a local wine store. After cleaning the bearings/felt rings in actone, I let them dry for 1 day. After that I heated the oil in my glass bottle with the bearings in the oven for 1 hour at 80°C. After that I applied the vacuum and left the bottle in the oven (oven turned off). When the oil is heated it becomes thinner I believe, and it is easier for the air to escape. When the oven turn cold I removed the bottle (still with vacuum). During the day I reapplied the vacuum just to be sure it was still there. The next day I put it back in the heated oven and released the vacuum in order for the oil to be infused/sucked in. I left it in the warm oven. After a couple of hours I turned it off and the bearings left in the oil for another 24 hours. Then I started reassembling.

But please do follow Saint Beogrowlers thread - it is very good.

Kim

Guillaume
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My Beogram was new when my father bought it... it stayed 25 to 30 years, out of order... as you.

same story !!!

i am really in love with it... souvenir of my dad...

if still noisy but running good, if you look at the back of the motor (where bottom bearing is fixed), you will see that the center of this part is kind of cut (not on all motors version), you can bent (really little) by pushing or pulling to get the perfect final alignment of the rotor. (No need to tear down your turntable, just do it when running from the bottom... make sure you do not touch the rotor)

anothrer possibility: sometimes a part of the stator is moving a little bit (really close of the rotor), but it would make a bigger noise than what you describe.

matador43
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Thank you kimvdk for the details.

Just one thing to be sure as I'm not English: "release the vacuum" is opening the bottle and let the air flow in, right?

kimvdk
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It's funny how this old vintage gear is freshened up and played again. They are so beatutiful and the sound is... good, natural and "just right" and different from the perfect sound from todays cd's/music streaming.

I will definitely have a look at the motor again. I disassembled the TT/motor many times. Sometimes the noise was there - sometimes it was not, so it probably has to do with some misalignment. Thanks for the tip!

-matador43. Yes, but releasing the vacuum I just mean to let the air flow in while the bearings are still in the oil. The oil is then supposed to be "sucked" into the bearings. Just leave it in the oil for 24 hours.

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