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Beogram 3000 Type 5228 too slow

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kimvdk
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kimvdk posted on Mon, Jan 18 2021 9:57 PM

Hi,

I inherited this beautfil turntable from my father. He bought it new in the 70's and it has been in their home (in a warm room) until I got it. The turntable stood unused for 20 years.

However, it does suffer from the same problem with the bearings I read about many times on this site. Before I realized that, I bught a new idler wheel and rubber belt as the rubber on the old idler wheel was hard and it gave a rubbing noise when pressed against the step puley.

I disassembled the motor according to the nice walk through that I found on this site. I put the bearings in acetone for 24h in order to dissolve the old gunk. There was plenty of gunk/dirt in the acetone when I was finished.

After that I prepared the oil infusion process by filling a small transparent glass bottle half way with SAE30 oil (Castrol Classic XL 30 - SAE30, https://www.oliebiksen.dk/shop/castrol-classic-xl-2660p.html). I fitted a wine vacuum plug and made a vacuum. Then the air started to free from the bearings - that process went on for several hours. The bottle was kept in the oven by 80 degr. C. Another 24h later I released the vacuum and removed the bearings after a couple of hours.

While infusing the bearings, I also soaked both "felt rings" in oil:

(picture taken before the oiling process)

Everything went fine so far. So I fitted everything backwards and adjusted the step puley so the 33 rpm mode could touch the widest part of the puley (for maximum speed if needed).

I have now tried the turntable over several days and the symtoms are all the same: It starts up too slow at about 30-31 rpm. After 25-30 min. it can go up to 33 1/3 rpm (and higher), which of course tells me that something is still wrong. However, I don't think there is too much friction in the motor, because when I cut the power (idler wheel not touching the puley), it doesn't stop immediately but keeps going a couple of seconds before stopping. Also I can very easily spin it with my fingers.

So, do you have any clue of what I should do now?

I have some suggestions myself (but I would really like your opinion instead of shooting in blind):

* Wrong oil used

* Infusing process gone wrong

* Misalignment of the bearings (how can I tell?)

* Maybe the felt sourrounding the bearings should be replaced? Should I also clean those with acetone?

* Some other parts of the turntable? But everything is moving very smoothly - also the little nylon piece on the speed adjustment arm is still on 

I really hope someone can help me here :)

 

Best regards from Denmark,

Kim

 

 

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kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Tue, Jan 19 2021 10:00 PM

I will respond to my own post. I read in another thread, that Dillen also suggested that the felt reservoirs should be cleaned in acetone and soaked with oil. Although I already soaked them in oil, I let them dry/drip off on a piece of paper afterwards for some hours. Probably not so clever.

So maybe I should give the felt rings another try:

1) Cleaning in acetone

2) Drying process

3) Thorough oil bath and immediatly fitted in the bearing housings

Spassmaker
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Hi Kim

My opinion would be not to disassemble the motor again, the felt washers are filled with oil and have no contact to the bearing/spindle of the motor, as you siad it runs after disconecting from mains for a few seconds, that's a good sign for a good alignment and asembling of the motor.

You wrote that you adjusted the stepped pulley to maximum but maybe there is a little more to lift,

My suggestion would be to check the hight of the stepped pulley to the maximun of 45 RPM, when the speed adjusting is turned  to maximun speed, without making noise.

Look for the lever that moves the idlerwheel up and down, at it's tip where it goes into the gap of idler should be a small piece of plastic that reduces the gap and the friction to the idler. Without this plastic tip the idler can move a little bit up and down.

Next to mention is that there have to be 50 and 60 Hz stepped pulleys or a different wheels, where the 60 Hz pulley is a little bit smaller.

Looking for that:

https://forum.beoworld.org/forums/t/1666.aspx

So take your tour and let us know how you get on the the speed issue.

Stay healthy and best bestregards

Christian

Menahem Yachad
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I have had this problem on a few BG120x and BG3000 TT's.

The solution was to carefully disassemble the Voltage Selector switch, and clean off the oxidization from all the brass selector contacts.

Wipe gently and repeatedly with cotton wool dipped in Brasso, or similar Metal Cleaner.

Definitely do NOT sandpaper, or file the contacts.

Afterwards, spray correct Electronic Contact Cleaner (Kontakt 60), and Reassemble.

Be careful to not lose the tiny spring, or ball bearing.

M Yachad

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Wed, Jan 20 2021 8:40 AM

Hi Christian,

Thank you for all suggestions and link - I didn't see that one earlier.

Re. felt washers - I remember them being quite hardened, but maybe that doesn't matter.

I didn't try the 45 RPM setting very much, but I visually inspected that the idler wheels reached the widest part of the puley when speed wheel was at the fastest position. I will have a look again.

But in fact when the turntable was run for > 25 min. the speed was correct - in fact it was necessary to turn down the speed in order to not exceed 33,33 rpm. It was just slow getting up to speed.

The small rubber piece on the bronze lever i still there and I already cleaned the dirt.

The unit is 110-240V and 50Hz. It says "GR 3000 - TYPE 5228 SERIE 05" and "No 25307"

Thanks again,

Kim

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Wed, Jan 20 2021 8:58 AM

Hi Menachem,

That was also interesting. I didn't read about that before. The voltage selector was never touched before, I believe, but I will definitely check it and spray with contact cleaner.

I will write back.

Thanks, Kim

Menahem Yachad
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Remember that these machines are ALL working on ONLY AC power.

There is no electronic motor stabilization circuitry.

Therefore the AC current must flow absolutely freely, directly to the motor.

Any interference (such as oxidization on any contacts) will directly impede optimum motor performance.

The contacts MUST be cleaned of ALL oxidization, BEFORE using Contact Cleaner, otherwise the problem will reoccur in the future.

Do it once, do it right!

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Wed, Jan 20 2021 3:15 PM

Ok, so I'm trying to figure out how to open the voltage regulator without breaking it, but I can't seem to find a way. Here are some pics:

Top:

Bottom:

Thanks for your time.

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Wed, Jan 20 2021 4:53 PM

I removed the motor again and made a small video clip to show the very easy movement of the pulley. But is it supposed to be moving freely up/down when I pull it?

Please see video clip: https://youtu.be/VZ0ZzZsaUb8

Menahem Yachad
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OK, so you're looking at the top side, which shows the 220 and 110.

In the center is a small plastic clip, which holds that cover on.

Pinch it to one side, and that cover will pop off.

So will the ball bearing and spring also jump out, so be ready to catch them.

Menahem Yachad
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Moving freely, and up and down looks OK.

If want it really well balanced, you should use shims (thin plastic card) to position the motor armature inside the housing, like this Thorens TD124 (Similar motor - I don't have a photo of a BG in shims).

I almost forgot - there are another 2 places to clean the contacts, and that is at the LIFT leaf switch, AND the leaf contact inside the solenoid, with the red plastic arm.


kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Wed, Jan 20 2021 8:32 PM

Hi,

Ok, so I managed to open the voltage switch. And you're right :) Parts jumping out and about, but I caugt all 4 springs, 3 small contacts and 1 ball. Cleaned all contacts with metal cleaner. Bought some contact cleaner 60 and hopefully receiving it tommorow, so I can clean an reassemble.

Before I opened the voltage switch, I switched the power on with the motor laying (like in the video). Of course it spins really fast, but I could also hear a low humming tone and some kind of "frequency" from the motor. This frequency was rising very very slow while it was on. This tells me somehow, that the motor spins faster and faster. Because, like I wrote before, when it has been running for 25 min., the speed is correct and the records sound right.

So something is definitely wrong - hopefully, the cleaning of all contacts could solve this. Otherwise, I will disassmble the motor again and take it from there :)

 

kimvdk
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kimvdk replied on Thu, Jan 21 2021 5:45 PM

Ok, so I got the contacts cleaned (carefully) with Kontakt 60 - they look like new now :) I let it sit for a couple of hours and reassembled. Reassembling was NOT an easy task with all the tiny bits (escpecially the ball) needed to be hold in place while pressing the small clip in again. But I managed somehow.

Unfortunately, that didn't change anything regarding the slow startup speep. It still starts at 30 rpm and *slowly* rising up till 33.

I'm still suspecting the motor / oiling process / alignment of shaft. But it is almost quiet - only a small humming sound coming from the turntable when assembled and operating.

I think I should take the motor apart again.

Kim

Spassmaker
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Hi Kim

Did you had a look for the leverarm and it's tip which goes into the gap of the idler wheel as I mentioned?

If the tiny plastic piece is of, only the copper coloured arm sits in the gap and the idlerwheel can move up for a little bit, because the clearence is too big. It should fit not tight but only minimun gap so zhe idler is running free.. Maybe it tends to go in direction to top of the stepped pulley and goes down after a while.

Best regards

Christian

Menahem Yachad
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Kim

Well done - you are becoming a master technician, out of necessity.

This is a matter of covering all the possibilities.

 

Has the idler wheel had the rubber replaced.

If not, the hard old rubber is very unpredictable, and of course it cannot make proper friction contact with the brass pulley, resulting in low speed.

 

But there is also another possibility which needs to be looked at.

On this picture, at the red arrow is a small cork disk mounted at the edge of the copper plate, which supports the speed wheel's up/down movement.

If that cork disk is damaged or missing, there will be excess friction, resulting in speed degradation.

 

And your rubber belt?

If it's too tight, there will be excessive bearing friction on the sintered bearings, especially if the axle is not 100% balanced.

 

I hope all this info can help you solve your problem.

There is a solution , and it is usually one or more of the issues I've mentioned.


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