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Technical Sound Guide for Beogram 4000c is now online...

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Geoff Martin
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Geoff Martin Posted: Sun, Dec 6 2020 3:51 PM

... in case it's of interest.

Go to 

https://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/speakers/beogram-4000c?variant=beogram-4000c-champagne-light%20oak

and scroll down to the bottom for the link.

Cheers
-geoff

 

kawo
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kawo replied on Sun, Dec 6 2020 6:51 PM

Thank you Geoff! Had a quick read but need to drill down more...good stuff.

So you know what needs to be next? Please go ahead with a more affordable turntable for the B&O enthusiast!

OlivierC
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That document is much more than a technical sound guide for the Beogram 4000c.

It is a very interesting read about vinyl history, technology and Beograms, even for non BG4000c owners.

19 pages of pure gold.

Thank you once again, Mr. Martin.

Olivier
Dillen
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Dillen replied on Sun, Dec 6 2020 10:06 PM

Beogram 4000c is not based on Beogram 4000.  Period!

And under the Sound tab;
"Frequency range : 50, 60 Hz"
- Eh?

The tapped wooden cabinet is a shame. It looks like an apple crate.
And of course it's also a shame that they had to paint the arms black because Soundsmith can't make the lovely metal housed cartridges, only the black plastic-look ones.

The nicotine colored metal panels is also a set-back. The alu panels were so beautiful and classic. Now it has all been given the color of the 1960s and 70s that I have spent hours on end trying to remove from smokers units.
Yikes. To me it looks dirty and sticky. I can almost smell it.

One can only hope that the new electronics, RIAA etc. was made to compensate as much as possible for the harsh, sterile and lifeless sound of the Soundsmith cartridges.

Else a nice deck.

Martin

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Mon, Dec 7 2020 3:25 AM

How do you really feel Martin? :-)

I agree with some of your points but I think out of all of this 95th Celebration event there is an important, and kind of cool, statement about the Beogram 400x turntable.

We have long wondered if Bang & Olufsen would produce a new turntable. We also wondered what they would do regarding a phono cartridge. People pondered what sort of modern features it would have to have.

In the end...Bang & Olufsen went with a true classic, one of their classic Beogram 4002 editions. I think the naming of Beogram 4000c is more related to the 400x series that the first Beogram 4000 started.  It probably would have been much more difficult to acquire and update the original Beogram 4000 turntable. I am glad they didn't go that route. The original Beogram 4000 turntables started it all and should be left as they are. Restored to their original state. 

The most positive aspect I see in this is that the long awaited new Bang & Olufsen turntable is a restored classic. A Beogram 4002 turntable. It has to be their most popular turntable of that era. Plenty to choose from to produce the ninety-five special editions...and restored to new condition it still performs brilliantly. Those of us that have continued to maintain and restore our own Beogram 4002 turntables have known for years that those turntables are built like tanks. They will play records forever when properly maintained...and play them beautifully. It is pretty amazing to think that an almost fifty year old design is still the chosen design today. 

And...a big thanks to you Martin for helping us owners out with replacement parts and technical advice.

John 

matador43
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Got my copies! Smile

 


Dillen
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Dillen replied on Mon, Dec 7 2020 8:19 AM

Don't get me wrong.
I think it's a great idea to look back and do something like this, and I think it's a great deck.
The use of massive wood rather than veneer is welcome but the fingered joints are blocking the streamlined design and reminds me of cheap and bulky 1970s livingroom furniture. My sister had a sofa, a chair and a coffeetable that looked just like that. None of that is going inside my house today.
Take a look at the real Beogram 4000 (or 4002 for that matter), those end joints are fantastic in that they are really not there.
The Beogram 4000c fingered ends are made wider than the cabinet trim is thick. It makes the cabinet look thicker than it is. B&O never before deliberately tried to make anything look bulky, let alone thicker than it is.
Quite contrary, they always strived for light, sleek and elegant, and that's what the original decks were, despite them being quite squar'ish.
Sadly (and clearly) Jacob Jensen is no longer around, and apparently noone could fill his shoes, or B&Os things would still end up classics.
Having said that, visible screws would have been worse. - Or fake screws.

The nicotine colored panels. Well, they may look alright now (perhaps primarily to young people, who never found themselves in a smokers home), but I fear they will end up like the green Beolab 4000 and red Beovision models, with owners trying anything and their best to get the outdated color off a few years after buying.
If one of the earlier models, say the Beolit 39, was "recreated" in 1975 for B&Os 50 years anniversary, it would have come in a selection of red-burned orange, watering can green and ocher because that was the modern colors back then (unless Jacob Jensen had a say).
Surely it would have looked the part at the time, but only for a few years.
Luckily, the 50 years got celebrated with a red Beolit portable radio, which is still nice looking (thanks to Jacob Jensen).

Coloring something to look modern does not make a classic.

For a horrible example look at Peugeot cars. When brand new they look modern, sometimes even futuristic. Really the part!
Look at the same car again five to seven years later and it looks 25 years old.
There are reasons why Jaguar E-type, Porsche 356 and Ferrari 246 Dino are forever classics.

But thanks for not adding Bluetooth or some other protocol or connection that will be outdated in five to ten years.

A new Beogram would indeed be interesting. But this is not a new Beogram.

A brand new Beogram 4002 would've been nice (but call it something else).
DIN and RCA at the back. Yes, please.
Remote control - yes please, and/or at least the "later" type of datalink to fit the other classic products - yes, please.
An RIAA preamplifier that can be switched on/off as needed, discretely built as the better of B&Os were - not those OpAmp based ones used in the later decks.
Detachable dustcover? Why? The hinged cover of the Beogram 2000/3000 was a huge improvement over all earlier models. No longer did you have to locate a (safe!) place to store the dustcover when you want to play a record (the safe place not being the conveniently empty chair you will be sitting in in a few seconds).
Keep the design elements that made the original decks look sleek and elegant, - the ones that made other producers throw in the towel.
Keep the sleek alu tonearms that blend in nicely with the backdrop panels rather than stand out in protruding contrast.
Same goes for the operating panel.

I suppose my question is, what would a new turntable be like if designed by Jacob Jensen?
There's a good chance it would end up a new classic, and there's a good chance that even I would buy one.

Martin

matador43
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Dillen:
No longer did you have to locate a (safe!) place to store the dustcover when you want to play a record (the safe place not being the empty chair you will be sitting in in a few seconds).

I knew somebody was watching me! 

Geoff Martin
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Hi Olivier,

Just doin' my job.. but: thanks!. :-)

Working on this project, I realised that I didn't really know very much about vinyl - not really. As I've told many people lately, I'm old enough that many of my textbooks had chapters on phonographs in them - but young enough that we didn't cover those chapters, since it was a dying format (I was in one of the first tonmeister classes at McGill that used digital tape recorders and editors. This also meant that I was in one of the last classes to learn how to edit by splicing 1/4" analogue tape, and how to clean and align a 2", 24-track analogue reel-to-reel.)

So, you're right - that TGS isn't really about the Beogram 4000c specifically. It's more like a distillation of things I've learned in order to bring myself up to speed on vinyl in general. If it had been a TGS for one turntable, it would have been much shorter.

I'm already working on the update. I also have some long-term plans to be a little more elaborate in some of the information via my website - but that'll take a while.

Cheers
-geoff 

Geoff Martin
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Hi Matador43,

I'm curious - how did you re-arrange the page order to make the printing to A3 format happy?

When I'm bookbinding, I normally do this manually - but if you have an automatic way to do it, I'd like to try it out.

Cheers
-geoff

Michael
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Michael replied on Mon, Dec 7 2020 9:55 AM
Dillen:

Beogram 4000c is not based on Beogram 4000. Period!

And under the Sound tab; "Frequency range : 50, 60 Hz" - Eh?

The tapped wooden cabinet is a shame. It looks like an apple crate. And of course it's also a shame that they had to paint the arms black because Soundsmith can't make the lovely metal housed cartridges, only the black plastic-look ones.

The nicotine colored metal panels is also a set-back. The alu panels were so beautiful and classic. Now it has all been given the color of the 1960s and 70s that I have spent hours on end trying to remove from smokers units. Yikes. To me it looks dirty and sticky. I can almost smell it.

One can only hope that the new electronics, RIAA etc. was made to compensate as much as possible for the harsh, sterile and lifeless sound of the Soundsmith cartridges.

Else a nice deck.

Martin

Pretty off topic for a thread about the technical sound guide.

Everyone has their opinion and this is a remake model as a tribute to the older classic designs and I believe the 4002 was picked for more space internally and easier to work on.

Nonetheless sorry to hear you are so disappointed with the device but of course you also do not need to buy it. There is plenty of old devices out there and repairs can be made.

I’m impressed there is a technical sound guide for this unique player but also never believe I will hear it as it’s not really for me.

I do however like the colors of the updated edition, it feels fresh IM-H-O.

Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, 
BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, 
BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, 
BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, 
BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)  

Millemissen
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Dillen:

And under the Sound tab;
"Frequency range : 50, 60 Hz"
- Eh?

Martin

Who is responsable for that there, I don’t know.

However, if you read the specs, that Geoff Martin includes in the ‘Guide’, you can see what is meant.

 


There is a tv - and there is a BV.

matador43
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matador43 replied on Mon, Dec 7 2020 11:06 AM

Geoff Martin:
how did you re-arrange the page order to make the printing to A3 format happy?

Good morning Geoff,

When it's A4 (to print on A3) or A5 (to print on A4) and need no bleed, I use the "print booklet" feature in the print dialogue box from Adobe Acrobat.
You only need to take care you have the right page count to keep the facing pages right. 

When it is a special format (square, or smaller than A4 because it need  bleeding…) I have to do it manually.
In the case of this TSG, I had to do it manually to have a full picture cover which implies to shrink the size a little bit to avoid white margins. And if you only reduce the print scale, it will center the page in the half sheet resulting in too wide inside margins.

Hope I am clear. 

Geoff Martin
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Thanks Matador43,

That's very clear. But it means that I'll keep doing it manually.... 

The reason is that I'm typically binding books with multiple signatures - and I like keeping track of how many sheets are in each so that I don't have one weird little one at the end. 

Cheers
-geoff

matador43
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Having the right page count is easy (always multiple of 4), but having the right facing pages, or guessing when they are unfolding pages (like in Service Manuals) or when there is a blank page in the original publication (often missing in the pdf), that is more "funny".

I had quite hard times when reprinting the BG4002 Design Story bcause of single sided pages!
I ended printing it recto verso after altering the page number position! (Thank you for sharing it by the way.)

AdamS
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AdamS replied on Mon, Dec 7 2020 2:08 PM

Whilst I understand the confusion over calling a re-manufactured 4002 a '4000', one important thing to consider is that the 4002 has room inside for the new RIAA PCB. As I remember from my last time with a 4000, you'd struggle to squeeze a matchbox inside, let alone a PCB, so they couldn't have used one for the conversion.

Regardless of the reasoning behind them, I love the styling and the colour combinations. Just wasn't so much a fan of the price - not that it matters now anyway!

I love the new outer box, too - are there any spares left over, Geoff? I don't mind a slightly tatty prototype! Wink

Geoff Martin
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AdamS:

Whilst I understand the confusion over calling a re-manufactured 4002 a '4000'...

The nomenclature issue is an interesting one that results in discussions that are fun to watch from the other side of the cafeteria.

I occasionally see people at the lunch table waving their hands, drawing rectangles and triangles in the air when explaining which Beosound 1 they use at home.

There's not much confusion over which Beosound 2 you mean - since no one thinks that you mean the little MP3 player any more.

At home, I use both a Beogram 42 and a Beogram 3000 - the 1980s tangential tracking Beogram 3000, not the 1970s Beogram 3000 - or the even earlier 1960s (Thorens) Beogram 3000 or the other 1960s Beogram 3000 with the motor from Acoustical.

I also have a broken Beolit 600 that I might get up and running again some day - it's a 1960s Beolit 600 - not a 1970s Beolit 600. For now, that one just fills in occasionally as a backdrop when I take photos of fountain pens.

Cheers
-g

 

Michael
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Michael replied on Tue, Dec 8 2020 12:33 AM
Geoff Martin:

At home, I use both a Beogram 42 and a Beogram 3000 - the 1980s tangential tracking Beogram 3000, not the 1970s Beogram 3000 - or the even earlier 1960s (Thorens) Beogram 3000 or the other 1960s Beogram 3000 with the motor from Acoustical.

Was at a dinner tonight with dear friends of mine, whom I helped many years ago to find a nicer vinyl player. I said they need to get a B&O and they wanted a subtle discrete one. I chose the 3000 and they love it still. We even listened to it today and I remarked that there now is a new 4000 but I really like that one they have for it’s discrete design and more or less same technology inside. So it’s super fun to hear you use that one as well, I’ll let them know that tomorrow Smile.

Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, 
BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, 
BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, 
BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, 
BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)  

AdamS
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AdamS replied on Tue, Dec 8 2020 11:34 AM

Geoff Martin:

There's not much confusion over which Beosound 2 you mean - since no one thinks that you mean the little MP3 player any more.

Amusingly, we have a Beosound 1 in the kitchen but I have a Beosound 2 in the cupboard under the stairs and it is the little MP3 player! It was a very generous present from Mrs. S years ago but really isn't my sort of thing, so it has never been out of its box and I have no idea what to do with it now...

Ditlev
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Ditlev replied on Tue, Dec 8 2020 8:40 PM

Did anyone here (apart from you Geoff :)) actually listen to it IRL? It's hard to even find a review...

Jan van der Molen
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Thank you Geoff. Very nice to read this technical sound guide. As I've been working for B&O in NL for a very long time, 43 years, I was one of the happy people working with the introduction of the Beogram 4000 in the Netherlands. That's why I remember some of the details very good.

-E.g. the BG4000 was delivered with the SP15 and not with the MMC6000. The MMC 6000 was introduced with the Beogram 6000 in 1974. And the MMC 6000 had the so called Pramanik shaped diamond. As far as I remember the Pramanik shape is 'older' then the Shibata shape. The engineers from JVC came to B&O in order to test the CD4 system as they themselves did not have a diamond with the right shape. The engineer, later on one of the directorsof JVC, became a good friend of Pramanik.

-Bonded diamonds are not mounted on steel but on e.g. titanium.

- In order to minimize ETM, cantilevers of MMC's were made of aluminum and later on of beryllium (MMC6000)  and single sapphire. Not only lighter but also stiffer than aluminum.

-Another very important issue for the Beogram 4000 was the lack of acoustic feed back. The pendulum suspension could hardly be influenced by mechanical or acoustical movements.

The Beogram 4000 is, as the director of Technics once said"the best recordplayer in te world" . That's why he placed one in his museum.

Kind regards,

Jan

Geoff Martin
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Hi Jan,

Thanks for the editorial advice! I'll fold most of these corrections into the next version of the TGS.

I'll send you a message about some details shortly.

Cheers

-geoff

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