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NL/ML Converters feeding the B&O addiction!

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beojeff
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beojeff Posted: Tue, Feb 18 2020 11:19 PM
I worry that I might just be one of the worst B&O addicts out there. Sadly, the introduction of the NL/ML BeoLink Converter has fed this addiction without boundaries. There once was a time when we were limited to ONE audio master device. There were a few devices that could also serve as audio slaves for local control in an ML system. Still, we then had LIMITS to our addiction. However, the NL/ML Converter now lets us do what was once unthinkable: add MULTIPLE B&O devices as audio masters for distribution and control throughout the home.

So this is what I now have, using 7 (yes SEVEN!) NL/ML BeoLink Converters:

BeoCenter 2

BeoSound 4

BeoSound 5

BeoSound 2300

BeoSystem 4500

BeoMaster 5500 with BeoGram 9500 and BeoGram 3000

BeoSound 9000

BeoSound Moment (living room)

BeoSound Moment (bedroom)

BeoPlay A6 (dining room)

BeoPlay A6 (guest bathroom)

BeoSound 35 (master bathroom)

BeoPlay M5 (jacuzzi)

BeoSound 1 (NL version, kitchen)

Now for the TVs, all connected via an Atlona HDMI matrix:

BeoSystem 4 (living room)

BeoSystem 3 (kitchen)

BeoSystem 3 (den)

BeoVision 10 (master bedroom)

BLGW

So you're thinking: But aren't you limited to the number of ML sources you can access on an NL device? This is where it gets really crazy. With a BLGW you're NOT! You can actually create macros to access ANY source on any NL device! You're not limited to the borrowed sources from "primary" and "secondary" linked devices like you are on the B&O phone/tablet app. Rather, you can trigger any source via a macro by assigning it to a CONTROL + (number) command. You can use the predefined CONTROL commands already on the BeoRemote One and rename them to make them logical for you. For example, they could appear on the BeoRemote One CONTROL list as "BS 9000 CD" or "BM 5500 Turntable."

Actually, there IS a limit in an NL network: 32 products. So there's at least some hope for stopping this addiction.
Mikipidia
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Mikipidia replied on Tue, Feb 18 2020 11:30 PM

bloody hell mate, you're not kidding aroundStick out tongue

New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound 1 Bronze edition, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1.

Mikipedia on YouTube (finally Stick out tongue )

https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia

Old: Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.

StKong
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StKong replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 3:10 AM

beojeff:
I worry that I might just be one of the worst B&O addicts out there.

[...]

Actually, there IS a limit in an NL network: 32 products. So there's at least some hope for stopping this addiction.

Beojeff, I respect and admire you! Please keep posting more on your setup!

TWG
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TWG replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 9:56 AM

That's true B&O love! Smile


Do I understand correct, that you can even control your Beograms via App and/or modern remote control (thanks to NL/ML converter)?

Millemissen
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@beojeff

I like that :-)

Thank for posting.....very inspiring!

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 12:12 PM

TWG:

That's true B&O love! Smile


Do I understand correct, that you can even control your Beograms via App and/or modern remote control (thanks to NL/ML converter)?

This is correct. You just need a datalink Beogram turntable connected to a datalink BeoMaster. When connecting such an older MCL system, you'll also need the MCL to ML converter (Type 1612 in the U.S.) to first convert the MCL system to ML for connection to the NL/ML Converter. You can then use the BeoRemote One BT to control playback of the BeoGram from an NL device such as BeoPlay A6. You can also control playback from ML devices such as a BeoVision 10 -- which could not previously control older datalink devices. You just need to also have that ML device (such as BeoVision 10) connected to the NL network using another NL/ML Converter.

A way of thinking of this is that the NL system can be used to join multiple ML systems. Each ML system requires its own NL/ML Converter. Each of these ML systems can include link devices.

I'll point out that the B&O app still has not been given the attention to NL/ML Converters that they deserve. Some functionality isn't on the app that should be. However, the B&O remotes work great.

Millemissen
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@beojeff

As for including an MCL-based master/system is the PL connection - in addition to the Aux - mandatory, when connecting the Beolink -1611 - converter?

Or is this a matter (like with an ‘old’ MCL/ML setup) of wanting to use the controls on the master/system for starting an ‘integrated’ video product (the A-master being in option 0) or just wanting to activating/control the sources to another A or V product in the setup with the remote (in which case it is not needed)?

I hope you understand, what I mean ;-))

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 2:18 PM

Millemissen:

@beojeff

As for including an MCL-based master/system is the PL connection - in addition to the Aux - mandatory, when connecting the Beolink -1611 - converter?

Or is this a matter (like with an ‘old’ MCL/ML setup) of wanting to use the controls on the master/system for starting an ‘integrated’ video product (the A-master being in option 0) or just wanting to activating/control the sources to another A or V product in the setup with the remote (in which case it is not needed)?

I hope you understand, what I mean ;-))

MM

MM

You are correct about how adding the PL cable is needed just in the case that you mentioned for the old integrated setups. I haven't found that I need it. However, it might be needed in a situation where you assign video ML sources to be mapped to NL sources for playback on the ML system. I just don't do that so I haven't tested it.

Millemissen
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@beojeff

In my/this case a MCL-audiomaster (connected to the 1611 converter would be in option 0 and integrated to an NL-tv in the same room using the NL/ML Converter.

In previous setups I did not use the PL connection, since I don’t wanted the option of starting sources directly - I prefered using the remote via the tv.

But that might change ;-)

I guess trying it out one of these days will solve the mystery!

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

frog
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frog replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 2:48 PM

I’d love to see the schematic as to how this is all wired up. I’m intrigued as to how you add multiple masters. I suppose you are using subsets of ML with them all connected together via NL/ML gateways in a NL network?

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 3:00 PM

frog:

I’d love to see the schematic as to how this is all wired up. I’m intrigued as to how you add multiple masters. I suppose you are using subsets of ML with them all connected together via NL/ML gateways in a NL network?

Each NL/ML Converter appears as a node on the NL network, just like any other NL device. On the BLGW, all of the ML sources that are on each NL/ML Converter appear as sources for that particular node.

StKong
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StKong replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 3:38 PM
beojeff:

Each NL/ML Converter appears as a node on the NL network, just like any other NL device. On the BLGW, all of the ML sources that are on each NL/ML Converter appear as sources for that particular node.

This is fascinating reading.

Have you connected your speakers to the PL-sockets of the NL/ML converter to eliminate delay, and how do you tackle link products over ML with regards to delay? Also, how are these manageable (if at all) via the gateway?

Also, how well does an old IR-remote fare in your setup?

I use two NL/ML converters without a gateway in addition to several NL products, and I have a feeling I might be following your path soon for the sake of integration.

I agree, that sadly the app is lacking when it comes to making use of the NL/ML. I currently use a combination of the new app and the BeoMusic.

Far from ideal, and I would truly love to operate it all via a remote.

I am eager to learn more about all the intricacies and any pitfalls.
beojeff
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beojeff replied on Wed, Feb 19 2020 6:23 PM

StKong:
beojeff:

 

Each NL/ML Converter appears as a node on the NL network, just like any other NL device. On the BLGW, all of the ML sources that are on each NL/ML Converter appear as sources for that particular node.

 

 

 

This is fascinating reading.

 

Have you connected your speakers to the PL-sockets or the NL/ML converter to eliminate delay, and how do you tackle link products over ML with regards to delay? Also, how are these manageable (if at all) via the gateway?

 

 

Also, how well does an old IR-remote fare in your setup?

 

 

I use two NL/ML converters without a gateway in addition to several NL products, and I have a feeling I might be following your path soon for the sake of integration.

 

 

I agree, that sadly the app is lacking when it comes to making use of the NL/ML. I currently use a combination of the new app and the BeoMusic.

 

Far from ideal, and I would truly love to operate it all via a remote.

 

 

I am eager to learn more about all the intricacies and any pitfalls.

That's interesting that you bring up the delay. I had not had an issue with delay until adding my BeoSound 4 with a converter yesterday and I noticed a horrible delay echo with the BeoSound 4. It occurred to me that I had not used speakers with NL/ML converters until I did so with the BeoSound 4 with BeoLab 4 speakers connected to the BeoSound 4. I really had just connected the BeoLab 4 speakers to test my new BeoSound 4. I will probably remove the speakers from the BeoLab 4 and instead listen to the BeoSound 4's sources on my NL speakers (which are better than the Lab 4s anyway) as added sources on those NL speakers. This is what I have done with other audio sources such as the BeoSound 9000 and BeoCenter 2.

The Beo4 works great for IR products. However, I have replaced all of my Beo4 remotes with BeoRemote One remotes. I like that with the BeoRemote One you can rename the sources under MUSIC to more logically represent how they are mapped on the NL/ML converter. For example, instead of remembering that "AUX" (such as it is on the Beo4) is mapped to use the BeoSound 9000 CD, on the BeoRemote One I can actually rename "AUX" to "BS9000 CD." Similarly, if I'm using a BLGW it's nice to have those commands listed in the CONTROL list of the BeoRemote One and rename the commands to represent what they actually are -- instead of needing to remember that something like "CONTROL + 23" on the Beo4 is the trigger for the BeoGram turntable.

The big benefit of the BLGW is that it lets us break free of the limitations of the B&O app where we can only borrow sources from up to 2 products. You can actually borrow sources from ANYTHING, and the BLGW lets us do that with macros.

I'm pretty irritated with the lack of attention given to NL/ML converters on the app. It's just unacceptable that we can't replace the image of the NL/ML Converter with for example an image of a BeoSound 9000. It's clear from the web configuration menu that the original intention WAS that we could assign ML product icons for the converter in the app. However, they've moved away from that and they just don't seem to care.

For some odd reason, there are some sources on the app that the app does not allow us to step through tracks. For example, the "previous" and "next" buttons are not showing up for the A.MEM source of the BeoSound 4. However, the Beo4, BeoRemote One, and Essence remotes allow this control.

steve1977
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steve1977 replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 9:07 AM
Amazing to see! You must have a great (and spacious) home.

One Q - how do you have your BV10 integrated?
Daniel
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Daniel replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 10:51 AM
Really fascinating reading! I just love it.

If I understand it correct, MCL/ML product is sending audio to NL system, not the other way round?

Can you still use speakers inside a “MCL/ML node”, like BL8000 connected to a BS9000? Do you have any ML speakers (like BL 2000 or 3500)?
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beojeff replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 11:22 AM

steve1977:
Amazing to see! You must have a great (and spacious) home.

 

 

One Q - how do you have your BV10 integrated?

Now, I only have three ML devices that are used for speakers: The BV10 in the bedroom, The BeoSystem 3 with BeoVision 4 in the den, and the BeoSystem 3 in the kitchen. This is what I consider to be my "main" ML system with the BV10 as the video master and the BeoSystem 3s as the video slaves in that ML system. I have an NL/ML converter that is connected as the audio master in that main ML system. It is used to connect the main ML system to the NL system. With that NL/ML converter, audio sources from the NL system as well as audio sources from the OTHER ML systems (such as the various dedicated NL/ML Converters used for BeoSound 9000, Beocenter 2, BeoSystem 4500, BeoSound 2300, etc.) are mapped as audio sources for the main ML system. For example, I can then press "CD" in the bedroom, den, or kitchen to start the BeoSound 9000 CD to play in that ML room. A can press "A.AUX" to start the BeoSound 2300 CD to play in the ML room. Also, I have the BeoSound Moment in the bedroom integrated to use the speakers of the BeoVision 10.

Also, I have a Lutron RadioRa2 system integrated with the BLGW so that I have wall keypads and tabletop keypads that have buttons programmed to play various music sources, video sources, and playlists throughout the home. Those buttons are backlit-engraved with the name of that command. For example, I have an "ABBA" button in each room for when I have need of the Swedes.

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beojeff replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 11:28 AM

Daniel:
Really fascinating reading! I just love it.

 

 

If I understand it correct, MCL/ML product is sending audio to NL system, not the other way round?

 

 

Can you still use speakers inside a “MCL/ML node”, like BL8000 connected to a BS9000? Do you have any ML speakers (like BL 2000 or 3500)?

You certainly can have speakers connected to the MLC or ML nodes.

In addition to sending the ML or MCL audio source to be made available on the NL, you can also map the converter so that the NL sources such as Deezer, TuneIn, etc., can be available as sources on that ML or MCL device. Depending on how you have the ML role of the NL/ML Converter set, you might have to map those NL audio sources as video sources on the ML or MCL device. For example, "TV" on the Beo4 might be pressed to play Deezer on the BeoSound 9000.

I have removed my BL 2000 and two BL 3500 speakers. However, I used them in the past in such a setup and they work well.

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Daniel replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 12:57 PM
Great! Thanx for the answer!
steve1977
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steve1977 replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 1:51 PM
Now it becomes even more interesting... You seem to have accomplished two things that i’m trying for many years unsuccessfully. I have a similar setup as you have although only two ml/nl and less ml devices.

1) How did you link your moment to the BV10? Have you tried this recently and is it still working? I’d try for ages to allow my moment to use beolabs connected to a core or nl device permanently, but without success. I can pull up the moment as the source, but i cannot link the moment permanently with any speaker of another device

2) I struggle to integrate the ml/nl as audio destination. it works well as a source, but i cannot join an nl audio group. i wish i could just hit “join” in the b&o app. or at least join via remote (with p.mute on the tv). but no success whatsoever to use an ml/nl as destination for nl audio. it worked somewhat better with the beomusic app, but no joy now with b&o app and also not to join a multi-room nl stream otherwise.
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beojeff replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 2:25 PM

steve1977:
Now it becomes even more interesting... You seem to have accomplished two things that i’m trying for many years unsuccessfully. I have a similar setup as you have although only two ml/nl and less ml devices.

 

 

1) How did you link your moment to the BV10? Have you tried this recently and is it still working? I’d try for ages to allow my moment to use beolabs connected to a core or nl device permanently, but without success. I can pull up the moment as the source, but i cannot link the moment permanently with any speaker of another device

 

 

2) I struggle to integrate the ml/nl as audio destination. it works well as a source, but i cannot join an nl audio group. i wish i could just hit “join” in the b&o app. or at least join via remote (with p.mute on the tv). but no success whatsoever to use an ml/nl as destination for nl audio. it worked somewhat better with the beomusic app, but no joy now with b&o app and also not to join a multi-room nl stream otherwise.

I've had my Moment integrated with my BeoVision 10. There WAS a disastrous firmware update for the Moment that caused problems once with integrated setups, but you just need to request the firmware rollback.

I think I have the answers for your questions:

1. The Moment can only use the speakers of a TV for an integrated setup. More specifically, it can only use the speakers of a TV that is either an NL tv or if it's an ML TV the ML TV must be set as V.MASTER. I have my Moment in the living room integrated to use the BeoSystem 4's speakers in the living room. My Moment in the bedroom is integrated to use the speakers of the BeoVision 10 in the bedroom. When you go to assign the speakers for use in the Moment's setup menu, you will see options for these TVs to use their speakers.

2. I believe that in order to use the JOIN Beo4/BeoRemote One command with ML, you must have an NL/ML Converter that is set as A.MASTER. Then, you get to use the JOIN command with the ML TVs in that ML network -- both v.master and v.slave tvs. It works with all of my BeoVisions and BeoSystem TVs.

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steve1977 replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 6:09 PM
This is golden!!!

How to roll back the FW and what version?

Let me also try whether i can join from the Beoremote in the way you described. I guess it won’t work through the b&o app though. Still cool!
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beojeff replied on Thu, Feb 20 2020 7:49 PM

steve1977:
This is golden!!!

 

 

How to roll back the FW and what version?

 

 

Let me also try whether i can join from the Beoremote in the way you described. I guess it won’t work through the b&o app though. Still cool!

You need to contact BeoCare with the serial numbers of your Moment and ask for the rollback because you have an integrated setup. They do it remotely. Good luck, though. They're not particularly quickly responsive. Without the rollback, you should still be able to get an integrated setup. The problem we were all having was that the music would start cutting out after a few minutes and it would lose its connection.

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StKong replied on Sat, Feb 22 2020 11:15 AM

Beojeff,

I remember reading about your Lutron-integration on Kiran's thread a long time ago.
Could you elaborate a bit on the setup and how it works, and how well it works. 

I am very intrigued by the prospect of physical buttons.

How quick is the reaction? Do the buttons trigger TuneIn-stations or specific playlists?

What physical items are necessary for your installation?

Best regards! 

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Sat, Feb 22 2020 5:03 PM

StKong:

Beojeff,

I remember reading about your Lutron-integration on Kiran's thread a long time ago.
Could you elaborate a bit on the setup and how it works, and how well it works. 

I am very intrigued by the prospect of physical buttons.

How quick is the reaction? Do the buttons trigger TuneIn-stations or specific playlists?

What physical items are necessary for your installation?

Best regards! 

While the Lutron RadioRa 2 system is primarily intended for its light dimmers, shades, and fan control, its very easy to use it to trigger macros for anything connected by the BLGW. The reaction is instantaneous and solid. You can trigger macros to control Hue lights, B&O audio sources, B&O video sources, B&O commands such as play, pause, ff, rewind, etc.; Deezer playlists, TuneIn stations....really ANYTHING in the BLGW. Likewise, you can use B&O commands such as LIGHT and CONTROL commands to trigger control of the RadioRa2 devices such as lights, fans, blinds, etc. The BLGW bridges everything together.

On the RadioRa 2 side, you use what they call a "main repeater" that is connected to your home network. The main repeater serves as the bridge to wirelessly control all the RadioRa 2 devices. Devices you might use could be light dimmers, fan control, shades, wall keypads, tabletop keypads, occupancy/vacancy sensors, and the tiny pico button remotes. There is a computer program that is used to activate the various components to be connected to the main repeater. That computer program is also used if you want to map the keypad and pico buttons to control lights connected to the dimmers. However, if you leave those buttons unassigned, you can just as easily use them as triggers for anything in the BLGW via the BLGW. The computer program is free, however you can only get it if you complete the online training modules and pass their online efficiency test -- which is rather challenging. I also added the new add-on bridge that allows integration with homekit, alexa, and google. For an example of a very bare minimum setup, you could just have the following: a main repeater for about $300 USD and a tiny pico remote for $14 USD. The wall keypads and tabletop keypads come with a voucher that you can redeem for engraving. You fill out a form with what you want engraved on the buttons and email it to Lutron. In a couple of weeks, Lutron sends to you a plastic button overlay that you can replace for the blank button overlay that you just pop off. The buttons can be whatever color or layout you want with that new overlay. The engraved words are cut out of the plastic so that the light from the underlying part of the keypad shines through the cutout.

On the B&O side, you add the RadioRa 2 as a system on the BLGW. You then add each button, etc, as resources on the BLGW. You can do this by just pressing a button on the keypad and the BLGW can capture that event -- including both button press as well as button release. These resources now show up as events that you can use when building macros for the BLGW. It really is all very simple.

The RadioRa 2 system is available in the US, but it's not available in Europe. In Europe, you would need to instead use the Homeworks QS system which has similar keypads (but with even nicer finishes available) but it's more expensive and requires a dealer for installation since the computer program is not at all available to the end user. I've heard that the far cheaper Caseta system can also be used with the BLGW, but with that you primarily just have pico remotes available. You can't use the keypads with that system.

I hope this provides a better understanding!

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