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Bang & Olufsen in 2019... Your predictions?

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PaulGiles
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Frustrations experienced:

B&O:

no stereo pair for M3

No sound bar

Clunky APP

Clunky interface when using Deezer direct from BV

No motor stands for Horizon

Generally use a SONOS connect for APP control and integration of products.

BS9000 discontinued, clients do love their CD’s they have collected over the years

Pros:

Look of kit and integration with new and old

Motorised stand for TV (except Horizon!?)

Sound, just more depth and “flavour” than others

Smart home APP via BLGW etc

BeoRemote 1, simply gorgeous

Essence remote, superb and practical.

The SONOS is great but people do get frustrated there is limited inputs and now Play3 is discontinued there is a bit of a gap in the range.
Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 9:59 PM

https://www.displaysupplychain.com/blog/will-samsung-return-to-oled-tv

TV manufacturer margins, graph half way down article.

 

chucky
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chucky replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 10:07 PM
They will sell New Beovisions in 2019, no doubt. The movement is visable only 2 pricepoints left, you are stuck with Horizon or an Eclipse. The risk of not selling a TV cannot be calculated but from a branding perspective even if it is a low margin it helps selling complementary products especially the high end speakers. So look at if it is marketing. They are moving away but slowely.

The point of Lee is that the “high end” is gone, look at prices even second hand they drop as soon as you take it out of the box. This was never the case and is a sign on the wall. I do not trust their products anymore, I do not like my Essence remotes as it keeps failing. I do not like my cores as they need a reset after every update. Than people buying into a beosound 5 or a moment are stuck with an old machine, useless in a few years. Yes technicque goes fast but I remeber the DVI discussion people still bought it as it was a solid product and usable after 10 years. Now with the beoplay proposition it is just a consumable good, throw away in a few years.

Look at SONOS or other brands with HEOS or simular, B&O is no longer the brand in multiplay. With IP Control you can do anything that a Beolink system can, where is the added value then?

Their image is shot imho. They do not even know in which direction they are heading, Tue gone, new CEO under fire, what is next? I think the board does not even know where they are heading in 2020..

mawheele
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mawheele replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 10:13 PM
Sandyb:

Hang on - that says nothing about the actual contribution that TV's make to the top level gross margin, nor the actual margin on their BV's.

Mass scale TV manufacturers make margins in the region of 10-14%, and they have the benefits of scale. LG recently reported a record margin on TV's of 14%, and Sony's equivalent is between 10-11%.

My dealer has continually told me that from what he learns from B&O, the company makes a pretty slim margin on their BV's. Whether that has improved a bit is unlikely to change this picture materially. He has a long relationship with the company.

So I stick to the original point - share of sales and of profit are likely very different.

Reading through the 2015 annual report, I'm struck by a note they make - overall margin was adversely impacted by a higher share of TV sales in the mix.

If that doesn't suggest that their TV's are not what drives their margin, well I don't quite know what other indication one would need.

Anyway, despite all of this, and despite all the mood music, they make in the end make more BV's if they decide they are necessary - though the direction of travel suggests its real risk they move away.

Apart from the maths that would make it possible, the development cost is far lower on Eclipse as B&O had no chassis development costs to replace the Beosystem 4. Not only that, but the bill of materials are likely cheaper with 50% coming from LG versus the bespoke components of the past. They can also leverage the license agreements and economies of scale from LG.

I’m still struggling to understand where you see risk factors. More units, more revenue, more profit. Why walk from that?
mawheele
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mawheele replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 10:38 PM

Sandyb:

https://www.displaysupplychain.com/blog/will-samsung-return-to-oled-tv

TV manufacturer margins, graph half way down article.

 

So you take a Display/System Chassis with license fees covered with a BOM cost of £1100, add 6 speakers and amplifiers into a plastic frame with a cloth cover with their respective amplifiers and a controller board and charge £8000. Dealer gets 25-30% margin. Which means total BOM is about £3600 et voila - 40%+ Margin. 

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 10:59 PM

Yes its difficult to compare apples and oranges - B&O may make more than the mass market 10%, but that will likely largely derive from slapping on a sound system. Those I am happy make the company a decent enough margin - but the TV part, no. 

And I repeat, look through the annual reports of recent years - I've mentioned the comment in the 2015 report, which I highly suggestive that BV margins were dilutive, even if positive. That's the company's own information, not some back of the envelope supposition.

The evidence from the industry is that TV manufacturers have low margins, and as such it is understandable why there are fewer brands these days. The LG partnership may have improved things bit, but I suspect not materially altering the big picture when it comes to their group level thinking.

As I say, B&O may make further BV's - I have no idea, but the slimmed down portfolio, internal competencies, and moreover Roger's post after the strategic update a while back suggests its at risk. Certainly not the hey presto here's a healthy margin, why walk away calculation that you present.

 

chucky
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chucky replied on Wed, Jan 2 2019 11:03 PM
mawheele:

Folks - before we make comments like the above, please check your facts . Stuff like this on boards can impact perfectly good businesses actually doing well - like saying product categories are EOL or immaterial to their profitability. Here is what we actually know "The gross margin for the Bang & Olufsen business unit was 45.2 per cent against 42.4 per cent in the previous financial year. The significant improvement in gross margin was driven by an overall improvement in product profitability, especially on TVs , increased income from brand partnering, and a change in product mix."

Taken from the B&O's report and account for the last financial year.

Its not all doom and gloom - in fact, there are many rays of light.

Ok, fair point. But what is the proposition of the brand, selling more units or be inventuive. Meaning putting 6-12% of your revenue in R&D and be less profitable and have a function in the comming years and have a USP. My whole argument is based on USP, there is almost nothing left... where is the wow on a rebranded LG. What would the actual margin be had we treated the R&D cost as sunked cost and not taking in the costprice?

I have worked in these kind of companies as the billion industries one, I prefer the small ones as they are always ahead of the game and can still excist in Europe although wages are much higher.

mawheele
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Sandyb:

Yes its difficult to compare apples and oranges - B&O may make more than the mass market 10%, but that will likely largely derive from slapping on a sound system. Those I am happy make the company a decent enough margin - but the TV part, no. 

And I repeat, look through the annual reports of recent years - I've mentioned the comment in the 2015 report, which I highly suggestive that BV margins were dilutive, even if positive. That's the company's own information, not some back of the envelope supposition.

The evidence from the industry is that TV manufacturers have low margins, and as such it is understandable why there are fewer brands these days. The LG partnership may have improved things bit, but I suspect not materially altering the big picture when it comes to their group level thinking.

As I say, B&O may make further BV's - I have no idea, but the slimmed down portfolio, internal competencies, and moreover Roger's post after the strategic update a while back suggests its at risk. Certainly not the hey presto here's a healthy margin, why walk away calculation that you present.

 

Yikes. I come to the table with facts and actual quotes from the latest report and accounts and you share a comment you think you read from 3 financial years ago and assume it must be true today and then suggest I'm using supposition.  In 2015, B&O was transitioning a portfolio from BS4 to Android with all its associated costs across multiple TV lines. I can agree that 3-years ago that could well have been the case.  But that does not mean that today they are planning to exit a business or are making no profit, just when they tell their shareholders otherwise.  When we're discussing 26% of a company's revenues any dilution will be immediately visible across the broader number, and yet, profitability has increased. Those is the facts.

I'll leave this thread now as I don't agree with its implications to negatively and wrongly impact a company with falsehoods. Unfortunately, these remarks of Eclipse being EOL have spread to other threads and its just plain unfair to B&O and its employees.

 

Millemissen
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mawheele:

Unfortunately, these remarks of Eclipse being EOL have spread to other threads and its just plain unfair to B&O and its employees.

Actually we don’t know anything about this - all we can do is to speculate and discuss.

Some see a value in doing so - I’d rather just wait and see, what happens.....let the guys in Struer do their things.

Why not accept that we/the Beoworlders have no influence whatsoever!

(Which is actually good so, since everyone wants something different from the others).

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 9:07 AM

Millemissen:

mawheele:

Unfortunately, these remarks of Eclipse being EOL have spread to other threads and its just plain unfair to B&O and its employees.

Actually we don’t know anything about this - all we can do is to speculate and discuss.

Some see a value in doing so - I’d rather just wait and see, what happens.....let the guys in Struer do their things.

Why not accept that we/the Beoworlders have no influence whatsoever!

(Which is actually good so, since everyone wants something different from the others).

MM

To that point, I have edited my original statement to make it clear that it is only my opinion and not in any way official - just in case anyone is daft enough to listen to me!

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 11:26 AM

Actually your fact and quote showed nothing specific to TV margins, but whatever.

I've also not commented about the merits of the Eclipse - I don't have a big issue with it for the record.

I had the BV14, so I know what a problematic TV really is.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 11:42 AM

mawheele:

I'll leave this thread now as I don't agree with its implications to negatively and wrongly impact a company with falsehoods. Unfortunately, these remarks of Eclipse being EOL have spread to other threads and its just plain unfair to B&O and its employees.

First I've heard of Eclipse being EOL - I think you're reading too much into this. Where has anyone said it's EOL? First I've heard is, somewhat ironically, you mentioning it yourself :)

My understanding of the Eclipse was it might get an update in 2019, but B&O was running down its existing source of panels first. I'm sure we've discussed this, too.

mawheele
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Sorry. Your correct. The actual claims made were that B&O was leaving the TV business after Eclipse.
Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 4:18 PM

https://www.channelnews.com.au/exclusive-kennedy-group-to-bail-out-of-bang-olufsen/

not that things can't change, but this article makes reference to a decision to exit selling TVs.

 

chucky
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chucky replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 4:29 PM
Sandyb:

https://www.channelnews.com.au/exclusive-kennedy-group-to-bail-out-of-bang-olufsen/

not that things can't change, but this article makes reference to a decision to exit selling TVs.

So you move the TV liability to your subcontractor, in this particular case to LG, not really strange and done in automotive as a good example as wel. It does not mean they stop selling TV’s only devellopping, hence the move to LG. (Still not happy with the decision but that is another matter Sad)
mawheele
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In Australia😂
Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 4:37 PM

Guess we'll have to see, though I imagine it will be quite a while before anything is confirmed.

There's a webcast / analyst call on Jan 8th, though that may not clarify anything in this respect.

But like you, I'd prefer them to continue with BV's.

That's my preference at the margin.

I did pose the question yesterday - what would people hear prefer?

Option 1 - More BV's

Option 2 - The Sound centre / hub sold separately, useable with 3rd party screens.

Answer obviously depends in part on execution - which do we trust them to get more "right"

 

 

Millemissen
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Option 1 (definitely) - if executed as good as the BV Eclipse.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

DMacri
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DMacri replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 4:58 PM
Sandyb:

Guess we'll have to see, though I imagine it will be quite a while before anything is confirmed.

There's a webcast / analyst call on Jan 8th, though that may not clarify anything in this respect.

But like you, I'd prefer them to continue with BV's.

That's my preference at the margin.

I did pose the question yesterday - what would people hear prefer?

Option 1 - More BV's

Option 2 - The Sound centre / hub sold separately, useable with 3rd party screens.

Answer obviously depends in part on execution - which do we trust them to get more "right"

I would vote for option 2 so you don’t have to pay the increased margin associated with a panel that will become obsolete within a few years. I would still like the hub to have some elegant way to control peripherals.

Dom

2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, and ambio 

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 5:06 PM

yep, the Eclipse was much better executed than the 14 / Horizon etc.

Option 1 for me - largely because that would more likely integrate peripherals a bit better.

Though what I really want is a B&O Wallpaper.

I'm a wall mounter - I don't like wall mounting a C8 (for example). Not flush to the wall - that gap would drive me mad.

But then again, i'm guilty of obsessing over first world issues.

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 5:17 PM

I'm not a Video Engineer and so I would love to know to what extent you can overwrite/overlay a passthrough HDMI video stream in order to provide additional menus to control features etc. 

e.g. could the "curtains" function be achieved by modifying HDMI stream etc.

Depending upon results of above I think there is more mileage in option2 than option 1.

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Millemissen
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Difference between 1 and 2 is the remote.

With 2 you’ll need 2 remotes (unless you prefer one of the universal remotes).

With 1 you’d still have a BeoRemote for the whole unit (and more).

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 6:07 PM

Yes, exactly.

That was my point all along with all the debates about PUC's / BR One with a stand alone sound centre.

i.e that a standalone sound centre may not come with a BR One.

 

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 6:08 PM

Millemissen:

Difference between 1 and 2 is the remote.

With 2 you’ll need 2 remotes (unless you prefer one of the universal remotes).

With 1 you’d still have a BeoRemote for the whole unit (and more).

MM

Not sure that's entirely true - if all your B&Oness is connected to the soundcentre and the TV is controlled via CEC then you are 95% of the way there with a B&O remote supplied with the soundcentre - not a bad compromise.

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Mikipidia
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Agreed with puncher, and i would prefer option 2 at this point. B&O’s speaker outlast any screen they put on top of it, especially OLED screens. I’d much rather pay lg prices for the replacement of screens every 3-4 years than throw out the entire b&o device, much of which is mostlikely still perfectly fine.

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Hiort replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 9:06 PM
Quite sure there will be a successor to the Eclipse. Also the Horizon will get a successor (when the stock is sold out).

All in cooperation with LG.

That is my prediction.

But I’m quite sure..Wink

 

 

 

 

Livingroom: BL3, BL11, BV11-46 Kitchen: Beosound 1 GVA, Beocom 2 Bathroom: M3 Library: A6, Beocom 6000 Bedroom: M5 Office: Beocom 2 Travel: Beoplay E8 2.0, Beoplay P2

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 9:18 PM

Hiort:
Quite sure there will be a successor to the Eclipse. Also the Horizon will get a successor (when the stock is sold out).

 

All in cooperation with LG.

 

That is my prediction.

 

But I’m quite sure..Wink

 

 

Interesting, now that Meridian is LG's  audio  partner.

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Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 9:18 PM
  

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Millemissen
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Puncher:

Millemissen:

Difference between 1 and 2 is the remote.

With 2 you’ll need 2 remotes (unless you prefer one of the universal remotes).

With 1 you’d still have a BeoRemote for the whole unit (and more).

MM

Not sure that's entirely true - if all your B&Oness is connected to the soundcentre and the TV is controlled via CEC then you are 95% of the way there with a B&O remote supplied with the soundcentre - not a bad compromise.

I’d like to see that work 😉

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 10:41 PM

Sandyb:

https://www.channelnews.com.au/exclusive-kennedy-group-to-bail-out-of-bang-olufsen/

not that things can't change, but this article makes reference to a decision to exit selling TVs.

I really wouldn't read too much into this - I write similar articles for our tech websites. Sometimes writers research (ironically trawling forums such as this where we're saying their new premium TV is EOL) and get their facts wrong, are given a tip which often turns out to be incorrect or they've spoken with someone locally who has just offered the wrong information.

I wouldn't take 'Channel News Australia' as some definitive inside knowledge of B&O's plans back in Denmark. They know less than your average dealer and certainly less than someone such as Roger.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 10:54 PM

agreed, and I really don't take it as definitive by any means.

Merely threw it out there as a retort to the idea that "why would they walk away" - I do believe its being thought about, partly from my dealer, partly from what Roger explained, and partly from listening to Jon of Manchester on the Beotalk podcast (he didn't confirm anything specifically really, but you didn't have to read hard between the lines that an BV less future is perhaps upon us soon enough).

Given the above, I'd suggest it unwise to assume life will continue as before, though I'd welcome further BV's.. 

I've worked at enough global firms - at some point, most retrenched from being one stop shops, back towards what they were best at, i.e. where their core DNA lay.  So a similar move from B&O would come as no surprise at all, but we'll just have to wait.

 

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9 LEE replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 11:14 PM

A stand and sound system which would last for many years and give great service, with the option to replace the panel, would make B&O a 'long term investment' once again.

When technological pace was slower, that was the salesman's 'weapon' when closing a sale - working out what it would cost over 10-15 years against replacing an inferior non-B&O every 3-4 years...

 

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jan 3 2019 11:35 PM

8

Millemissen:

Puncher:

Millemissen:

Difference between 1 and 2 is the remote.

With 2 you’ll need 2 remotes (unless you prefer one of the universal remotes).

With 1 you’d still have a BeoRemote for the whole unit (and more).

MM

Not sure that's entirely true - if all your B&Oness is connected to the soundcentre and the TV is controlled via CEC then you are 95% of the way there with a B&O remote supplied with the soundcentre - not a bad compromise.

I’d like to see that work 😉

MM

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it couldn't!

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DMacri
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DMacri replied on Fri, Jan 4 2019 12:18 AM
Millemissen:

I’d like to see that work 😉

It works quite well with my BeoSystem 3 linked to my BeoSystem 6500 through a Beolink converter. The BS3 drives my 4 Beolab Pentas in DPL II surround for all my physical media sources on the BS6500. I have extended audio to multiple rooms using MCL2 and Masterlink using MCL6500, Beo4, and Beolink 1000 remotes. I have connected a Mac Mini running my 10k plus song playlist on constant shuffle, with the ability to skip tracks using my Beo4 remote. I can switch sources and control them with datalink or PUC with the Beo4 too. And my computer monitor “awakes” when I choose a video source connected to the BS3, opens and closes with electronic curtains. I can listen to radio, cassettes, LPs, iTunes, Apple Music, Apple TV (Netflix, Amazon video) any disc media through my Oppo 93, Pandora, DNLA using Twonky, and also Chromecast using their inexpensive dongle. Now for some advanced uses I may need my iPad or iPhone too, but it provides everything I need.

This arrangement is so flexible I now have two multi-channel systems in my home using BS3 and BS6500/BS7000. The second system uses MCL2 P amplifiers to drive my Vandersteen Model 1 surround system speakers and a Panasonic 730p video projector. I’ve also got a slightly less flexible system using an A/V 7000 and BM7000 providing Dolby Pro Logic operation in my family room with a Visio 4k smart tv.

Systems, sources, and media from the 50s through today all integrated in one ecosystem! The only problem is no current products from B&O can touch this. I was left in the past. Whatever - get my pipe and slippers - but I can’t believe B&O couldn’t come up with a BS5 that provides all of this and updated HDMI CEC functionality with 4k resolution, CEC, Dolby Atmos, and continue to include Masterlink connectivity for their extensive legacy base to keep us old folk happy. After all, if they refuse to release a new turntable, at least keep their legacy products viable.

I’ve already accepted B&O are quite happy with me helping to increase the value of their legacy products on eBay and from my local dealers pre-owned inventory, but does my use case really represent a niche market? Easy operation of almost any current and legacy media source with just about any output device - be it speaker or video display.

Dom

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DMacri replied on Fri, Jan 4 2019 1:11 AM
Puncher:

I’d like to see that work 😉

MM

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it couldn't!

I’ve got nearly that functionality with my BeoSystem 3 linked to my BeoSystem 6500.

Dom

2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, and ambio 

Mr 10Percent
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Bang & Olufsen in 2019... Your predictions?

1. Brexit

2. European Corporate Financing

3. WW Stock markets and Credit risk/appetite

 

B&O can design the product of the century......but their banking provider (plus in-country/German/ECB facilities) will get into a crunch. 

EOL for a lot of Companies in Europe in 2019

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Mr 10Percent:

EOL for a lot of Companies in Europe in 2019

I'm afraid your predictions will be correct. All that + the 45th President of the US. 

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DMacri:
Puncher:

I’d like to see that work 😉

MM

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it couldn't!

I’ve got nearly that functionality with my BeoSystem 3 linked to my BeoSystem 6500.

Not quite sure, what you are trying to describe (with your setup).

The question was ‘will a BROne (or a similar maybe coming remote from B&O) be able to control a non-B&O tv through CEC’ in a sufficient way.....

....which I doubt it can.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

1990
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1990 replied on Fri, Jan 4 2019 10:55 AM

A soundbar with integrated IR-transmitter and PUCs controlled by the BROne could be a feasible solution (see the NEEO remote)...?

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DMacri replied on Fri, Jan 4 2019 11:04 AM
1990:

A soundbar with integrated IR-transmitter and PUCs controlled by the BROne could be a feasible solution (see the NEEO remote)...?

MM - this is what I meant. It should not be a stretch to create an updated BeoSystem to meet all our needs. It could even be integrated into the same cabinet as the center channel and drive the other speakers with WiSA.

Dom

2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, and ambio 

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