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Mesh WIFI and Moment issues-- BO Design issue??

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Hockey44
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Hockey44 posted on Tue, Dec 18 2018 2:59 PM

Hello all,

I hope you are all getting ready for Christmas.  I am having a very frustrating experience with trying to get my Moment to work with a large 12tb Synology NAS and various hard-wired Beolab 5s.  My Moment for the past 2 years has never really worked properly as it always said "weak" wifi connection (on the tablet-- remote control) and craps out (technical term--  says on tablet my wifi "is too weak" although I have 200mbs fiber in my house!) even when in the cradle.  I brought the Moment to be tested in DK and they confirmed it is working correctly and MY problem is that I have a professional grade (Pakedge) mesh wifi in our home.  And it seems that BO products (ALL!!) do not work or well with Mesh wifi!  This is almost as ridiculous as my old BO tv did not have an HDMI cable!  Can someone please confirm that this is nonsense (I hope) and that in fact BO products work fine with Mesh wifi.  I have a Linksys Velop in NYC with Beolab 9s and have yet to try using the Beosound radio... I simply cannot believe that BO who are now selling more wifi speakers (finally to compete with Sonos) and have Mesh issues.  This is NOT a problem with my 1 Sonos speak I might add....hmm.

We have still not figured out how to use our Beosound 9000 and the Moment to 'control'.  Clearly BO have not figured out how to integrate their own technology (and then don't want to support it)-- I really wonder how this is tolerated in today's market with so many alternatives.  We have spent a lot of money on our much beloved BO products and aesthetics, however the after-sales support leaves so much to be desired.  A very un-Danish experience if I dare say so.

And for anyone in London, can you please suggest a very experienced and competent BO technician who knows and understands how the Moment is supposed to work and might be able to help me out.

Merry Christmas!

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Stan
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Stan replied on Wed, Dec 19 2018 4:47 PM

I'm not an expert, but have been working with wifi for many years.  I think the encryption excuse is BS.  Encryption works, or it doesn't.  I don't believe it can partially work or cause a weak signal (assuming the whole network uses the same encryption).

I also think the mesh excuse is BS.  Mesh does use "proprietary" protocols/methods/technology, but only between the mesh nodes, not to the end user network devices.  I recently replaced my Apple wifi infrastructure (airport extremes, time capsules, airport expresses) with a Netgear Orbi mesh network and all of my wifi devices work fine (Essence, BS2, Eclipse, Airport Express, printer, thermostats, etc).  I suppose there could be issues with routing within the network since these mesh networks are new and maybe some vendors have optimized their mesh for devices accessing the internet vs each other.  Having said this, I'm using my BS5/BM5 as a music server for my other B&O devices, and it all works just fine. 

I think the only point where mesh vs. non-mesh might matter to a network device is when switching between nodes as you move through your house.  When researching the mesh, I did read of some users who's phones didn't automatically switch fast enough when they moved from one zone to another.  I haven't seen this issue.  Given most of your equipment is fixed, I don't see this as an issue.  I would also expect your tablet to stay within the same zone as the base unit of the Moment.

When I was using Apple with multiple access points, I did have issues.  My BM5 (hardwired to an Airport Express) would often disappear from the Essence and Eclipse.  The B&O app saw the 2.4 and 5 GHz networks (different SSIDs) as different networks (even though you could route between them).  Therefore, when my phone was on the 2.4, it could not see devices on the 5 and vice versa.  Also, the Essence was horrible in choosing the right device.  I eventually hard-wired it to an airport express and rarely had problems with the Essence (only when I had to reset routers for some reason).  This is probably what is happening to you now, and I think creating an isolated SSID for all the B&O equipment should fix it since they should never find devices on different "networks" (i.e. different SSIDs).  If you use your phone to control devices you'll need to set it up to prefer the B&O SSID. 

Although, if you have a mesh system in the same location, I might turn off the other and just try the mesh.  I've had my mesh for a month and have had 0 issues.

 

Stan
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Stan replied on Wed, Dec 19 2018 4:55 PM

Hockey44:
seems to still be active via an Apple Timecapsul in our house. II will have to try to figure out how to turn the wifi broadcast from that-

This could definitely be part of your problem.  To turn off wifi on your time capsule, log into the TC via Airport Utility and set "network mode" to "off" under the "wireless" tab.  You can still use it for backups as long as it's wired to your network.

Hockey44
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Hi Stan,

The web gets more complicated....ughh!   I also struggle to understand why a Mesh would or would not work but I am no expert.

It is interesting how your experience with Apple mirrors some of mine as well.  My Moment is hardwired into the network (the device) but the Jukebox which I call a table, uses wifi I gather to communicate with the 'device' to change songs on my NAS or adjust volume etc.  The NAS is 'visible' on the network and the Moment builds the library without problems although it takes hours given 12b.  The Jukebox does not move much (except in my living room) so I don't see the issue of changing to different Pakedge access points.

If creating a SSID just for BO makes it work, hallelulha.  I am simply looking for a solution after 2 years of doing in circles. It doesn't help that BO have discontinued the Moment and don't seem too keen to support. But I spent the money, got the nice alum. stand and it does look the part.

When I get back to London I will get the engineers who installed the Pakede (or another installer who knows Pakedge) to create a SSID for the BO.  How do I remove an old network that seems to be causing the Jukebox to "stumble".  As the Timecapsul has an orange blinking light (not green) I had assumed it was not broadcasting wifi weakly (2 floors above).  But I must say, after each reset it seems to mysteriously again appear.  Thanks 

mbolo01
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Stan:

This could definitely be part of your problem. To turn off wifi on your time capsule, log into the TC via Airport Utility and set "network mode" to "off" under the "wireless" tab. You can still use it for backups as long as it's wired to your network.

Agreed. If the JB still connects to the TC placed far away, then a weak WiFi network connection shall be expected.

BS Moment, BS Core, BS Ouverture, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5, TR1

Stan
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Stan replied on Wed, Dec 19 2018 6:31 PM

I don't know anything about Pakedge, but hopefully it has an interface where you can see which network devices are connected to which network access points.  You should try to see which access point your tablet is connected to.  First, while it is on the stand, and then move it to your normal listening position and see what device it is talking to.  You may have to log into different access points to figure it out.  Hopefully, this will help determine the issue.

Blinking orange on the TC just means "somethings wrong", like it can't access the internet anymore.  It could very definitely still be broadcasting wifi, and if the tablet is anything like my Essence, it always seemed to connect to the "wrong" network.  There was an Airport express access point 10 feet away, but it would connect to my main router downstairs and ~100 ft away.  Got smart, bought a 10 foot network cable and wired the Essence to the Airport express, and it worked much better.  Unfortunately, you don't have the option to hardwire the tablet.

StUrrock
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StUrrock replied on Thu, Dec 20 2018 10:46 PM

Hockey44:

Hello all,

I hope you are all getting ready for Christmas.  I am having a very frustrating experience with trying to get my Moment to work with a large 12tb Synology NAS and various hard-wired Beolab 5s.  My Moment for the past 2 years has never really worked properly as it always said "weak" wifi connection (on the tablet-- remote control) and craps out (technical term--  says on tablet my wifi "is too weak" although I have 200mbs fiber in my house!) even when in the cradle.  I brought the Moment to be tested in DK and they confirmed it is working correctly and MY problem is that I have a professional grade (Pakedge) mesh wifi in our home.  And it seems that BO products (ALL!!) do not work or well with Mesh wifi!  This is almost as ridiculous as my old BO tv did not have an HDMI cable!  Can someone please confirm that this is nonsense (I hope) and that in fact BO products work fine with Mesh wifi.  I have a Linksys Velop in NYC with Beolab 9s and have yet to try using the Beosound radio... I simply cannot believe that BO who are now selling more wifi speakers (finally to compete with Sonos) and have Mesh issues.  This is NOT a problem with my 1 Sonos speak I might add....hmm.

We have still not figured out how to use our Beosound 9000 and the Moment to 'control'.  Clearly BO have not figured out how to integrate their own technology (and then don't want to support it)-- I really wonder how this is tolerated in today's market with so many alternatives.  We have spent a lot of money on our much beloved BO products and aesthetics, however the after-sales support leaves so much to be desired.  A very un-Danish experience if I dare say so.

And for anyone in London, can you please suggest a very experienced and competent BO technician who knows and understands how the Moment is supposed to work and might be able to help me out.

Merry Christmas!

Sonos can form its own mesh, but certainly in my experieince does not work (at all) when working with a direct connection via wifi in systems where 3rd party wifi nodes (meshed or hard wired) have the same SSID. Also Sonos because of its use of Spanning trees can cause network loops if the unts can see more than one route to the WAN.

 

In the case of the moment, I would always ensure there is a WAP nearby with a SSID just named for the moment tablet itself to connect to. Using Ruckus, Draytek,and Unifi to name but a few, when working to this rule we have never EVER had a problem with the moment tablet connecting via wifi.

WiFi Mesh networks we find  are always a last resort (Sonos mesh can work however as it is a dedicated mesh) and although can work for things web browsing on idividual devices, using them as a backbone for a multiroom music system is asking for trouble.

Also running multiple Apple Wifi devices in Bridge mode we have found not to be satisfactory in mid to large size installations.

 

 

Hockey44
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Stan, I think you might have 'nailed it'--- I have a feeling my TimeCapsule is broadcasting (weakly --2 floors above) but NO internet, hence the orange blinking.  When I get back from Copenhagen I will follow suggestions to turn off TC from broadcasting.  I wonder if that will fix it in itself?  But I do like the idea of Pakedge having a dedicated "network' to the JB so there are no interference issues.  I have found someone who installs Pakedge and also had some experience with BO and they think a simple event to create SSID just for JB should fix it.

In short, I am totally unimpressed with the BO support period.  They dont seem themselves to know if say mesh, encryption or 2.4hz make a difference. Frankly seeing their share price hit (down 27%) makes me happy and I hope their current CEO is replaced.  He hasn't created in my opinion a focus on EXISTING customers and more interested in selling headphones and cheaper speakers en masse.  I am still looking for someone in London (UK) who is expert in the Moment and installation in general. So if you know such a person, please chime in.  My to date experience cost a fortune and was a total waste!  Even documenting all of this and providing constructive feedback to the CEO in DK (after many hours of writing, editing photos etc.) resulted in a non-response!!  So despite my 20 year relationship with BO I think it has only gone spiraling downwards in terms of customer support.  However, this forum is the ANTITHESIS of that support and I can't thank all of you enough for your thoughtful and helpful suggestions.  So whomever was responsible for this and the ongoing support-- total props to the team!  Merry Christmas

mbolo01
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Make sure your TC is also not acting as a DHCP server, hopefully it is already the case, but better checking.

BS Moment, BS Core, BS Ouverture, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5, TR1

andy_js
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Hockey44:

Greetings again, the mystery continues... I just spoke with a Pakedge installer in the UK and he told me that there should have been a dedicated network (SSID) for the B+O. He believes there are known encryption issues between Pakedge and B+O and that B+O may not support the same encryption that I have on my Pakedge-- hence it always craps out and loses network.

Does this make sense? What he suggested was that I have Pakedge create a new SSID for JUST my Moment. And this should be done from closest wifi point. Can anyone advise what encryption protocol I should be using on the Pakedge so it also works with B+O.

Does this "new theory" make sense about encryption and that being my problem? Thanks,

Ed

That does not make any sense to me. I think he is just making excuses.
Hockey44
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Greetings and happy new year!  Just back from Copenhagen and was excited to set up Moment again.  I disaabled Time Capsule from broadcasting and thought, great all would work  Plus encryption in Pakedge is WPA2 so that was not a problem.  The damn thing keeps hunting for wifi??? I am hard wired into the network and then did a reset. It goes through the rebuild of DNLA library but seems to crap out ( lower right corner with reconnect words) after about 5000 songs.  Why does is keep asking to reconnect? It should remain connected?  I take off rear panel to see notifications and watch DNLA being harvested  but something is odd since it doesn’t see, to finish... any more suggestions welcome. 

mbolo01
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Hockey44:
I am hard wired into the network and then did a reset. It goes through the rebuild of DNLA library but seems to crap out ( lower right corner with reconnect words) after about 5000 songs.

I would not mix what the wired SoundHeart (SH) is doing, i.e. harvesting and indexing the DLNA collection, with the JukeBox (JB) communication issues. When the JB complains about "reconnect" it is not related to the DLNA processing issues but to its ability to talk to the SH.

When you wrote  "I disaabled Time Capsule from broadcasting" what do you mean exactly? Can you unplug the Time Capsule from the mains for the time of the test so the only wired/wireles network in your home is the Packedge one?

BS Moment, BS Core, BS Ouverture, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5, TR1

Hockey44
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Hello,

Apologies for lack of clarity.

I followed instructions and went to airport utility and under "wireless tab" I clicked "off" on TC.  So I have green on time capsule and I cannot see the wifi from TC on my iPhone-- so I do not believe it is broadcasting.


The SH now shows the DNLA has been harvested.  The JB is what is complaining about "reconnect".  PLUS it is sitting in the cradle-- I have not moved it.

However i am stumped since when I did the reset is asks for my network and password (which I entered and it connected-- when I did the reset).  Now asking to 'reconnect' although I entered all the details earlier.

Does this make any sense?

Thanks

Ed

Fansastic
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Hi,

Not sure if this helps but seems to me you misunderstood the hardwire / wifi needs for the moment. If you hardwire the soundhart your moment will connect to your attached network dlna music collection / NL network for other NL products such as speakers and tv’s from B&O and use Deezer and TuneIn all wired. You still need wifi for your jukebox (the tablet) to connect to the soundhart.

This is why you select an wifi connection in the setup, even when you have hardwired it.

What you describe is that you switch off the wifi on your apple router and then you are not able to control the Moment any more (other than the setup menu or bypass thebtabblet through the app, for which you need wifi also).

In short, do not switch off your wifi.

Best regards,

Serge
mbolo01
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Fansastic:
What you describe is that you switch off the wifi on your apple router

Hockey44 has a Packedge network deployed, including WiFi AP. The Time Capsule is redundant.

@Hockey44: please can you plug the Time Capsule off the mains for a couple of hours?

BS Moment, BS Core, BS Ouverture, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5, TR1

Hockey44
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Hi,
I wish I could attach a couple of photos to illustrate.  Basically it shows my DLNA collection is now harvested on Notifications.

 

Then when I go to say click on Radio I see message "No wifi signal" and strangely "DNLA server is unavailable" "The SoundSmart is reporting that the DNLA server is unavailable.  Songs from your DNLA server will not play until it comes back online".  (And in lower corner it is trying to 'reconnect').

I did re-enter stored network and PW and then it would work until I tried again and as soon as I hit radio it would lose wifi and the above process repeats.

Ideas? This is really driving me mad....thanks 

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