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How do we get ATV’s Dolby Atmos to a BV ?

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elephant
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elephant Posted: Tue, Jun 5 2018 9:54 AM
In today’s WWDC keynote the Apple TV is clearly no longer a hobby.

YoY sales are up +50%

A big deal was made of the latest ATV (gen5 I think) is the only box (ATM) that supports both Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos.

Here are some of the highlights:-

https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/

How to do it ?

The particular keynote speaker said “plug it into your sound bar” ....

Of course the only “sound bar” in the B&O stable is the Eclipse Centre .. so will it just magically will it “just work ... BOOM” ?

BeoNut since '75

Millemissen
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The quick and short answer is: We don’t!

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

elephant
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elephant replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 10:51 AM
Millemissen:

The quick and short answer is: We don’t!

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Is a better answer “we don’t know .... but it is only a software tweak for the Eclipse to support it!” ?

Or is the Eclipse not even capable of handling ATMOS despite all of the wonderful B&O sound engineering, speaker groups, etc ?

The exact sequence in the keynote is between 1h26m00s and 1h27m30s - don’t blink - you might miss it !

https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2018/

As I listened to her (marketing) explanation of how ATMOS is different from traditional 3.0 I thought of all the B&O capabilities in the Shape, BL 90 & 50 and thought “why not?”

I also thought of how the Apple HomePod works and thought Apple could be on a similar path.

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Hiort
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Hiort replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 11:22 AM
I assume that we are discussing the possibility of the Eclipse Soundcentre to decode Dolby Atmos, when an AppleTV is connected, right?

The existing Soundcentre will not be able to project any "Atmos sound" like e.g Yamahas Atmos soundbar. Its simply not built for that.

To decode Atmos and send the various channels further is subject to license (and perhaps hardware) as I see it. It’s maybe possible if B&O decide to add that functionality.

 

 

 

 

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Sandyb replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 11:56 AM
Yep as others have posted, you'll need an Atmos enabled speaker.

I'm not convinced that an Atmos enabled soundbar will be much better than a 5.1 non Atmos setup, especially a B&O one.

I don't quite know how the Apple TV will detect what audio capability you have. I'm presuming users set it in the Settings.

So if you have full video capability (4K HDR DVD) but only regular 5.1, the Apple TV can tell each service (Apple, Netflix, Amazon) to deliver that stream to you.

elephant
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Thanks Hirot & SandyB

That was useful if somewhat discouraging

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 4:56 PM
Not sure you're missing that much, especially with 5.1 through B&O speakers

I wouldn't overly worry
Millemissen
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elephant:
Millemissen:

The quick and short answer is: We don’t!

MM

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Is a better answer “we don’t know .... but it is only a software tweak for the Eclipse to support it!” ?

Or is the Eclipse not even capable of handling ATMOS despite all of the wonderful B&O sound engineering, speaker groups, etc ?

The exact sequence in the keynote is between 1h26m00s and 1h27m30s - don’t blink - you might miss it !

https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2018/

As I listened to her (marketing) explanation of how ATMOS is different from traditional 3.0 I thought of all the B&O capabilities in the Shape, BL 90 & 50 and thought “why not?”

@elephant

You have to know how Dolby Atmos (and for that part the other socalled immersive sound formats) work.

The Atmos ‘sound’ is a set of metadata, that is added to a Dolby multichannel stream (either lossless with the HD variant or - as with the streaming services - lossy with the DD+ variant).

A receiver must be able to ‘understand’ these metadata and it must know the configuration of the speakers layout of the system.

This - of course - is a matter of licensing, but certainly also of hardware.

The Dolby Atmos stream is bitstreamed (means passed on untouched) from the ATV4 to the receiver or - as told in the event video - to a soundbar, that is Atmos certified. 

Mostly these soundbars work with different algorithms in order to simulate the overhead (and/or surround) speakers. This is something, that the Sound Center of the Eclipse will never be able to due to its specific 

The ‘real thing’ is different, and requires - in addition to a traditional 5.1/7.1 setup further speakers placed correctly in the room.

It might (?) be possible to add this functionallity to all BSys4-based B&O setups - because the already support connection of multiple speakers (up to 16).

As of today you can already upmix a 5.1/7.1 signal to a lot more channels - using the built-in TrueImage processing.

See this article (although now 5 years old, still explaining, what a modern B&O system can deliever:

http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2013/12/06/bo-tech-trueimage-upmixing/

 

However, what (most) people will wish for - from B&O after this ATV update - is probably an Atmos soundbar.

The Sound Center as ‘soundbar’ will not do the job. Maybe the new - rumoured - soundbars will??? We can only speculate!

What those of us - who are more into the real thing (i.e. lots of speakers) are interested in, might be an integrated part of these ‘fancy soundbars’.

I suppose that these will be built on the TrueImage processing too.

However, I am rather sure, that the current BV’s will never get an Atmos update for their sound system - the costs would be too high, even if

it from a technical point of view would be possible.

 

MM

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kuyttendaele
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Indeed... I wouldn't overly worry that your B&O system is not Dolby Atmos sound compliant...

Have a look at: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

 

 

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Hiort replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 7:32 PM
I have listened to the Yamaha Atmos soundbar and the experience was remarkable. It has a number of small speakers that project the sound in various directions.

In a fairly symmetric room with hard surfaces allowing the “sound beams” to bounce a soundbar makes a remarkable job.

 

 

 

 

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Sandyb replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 8:01 PM
It's had decent reviews, I'll have to go and try it then.

Not sure if it's impressive for a sound bar, or just impressive in isolation.

I struggle with the idea that it alone is any better than my 5.1 set up (18 front, 3 rear, 19 sub). It was almost too good when I watched Blade Runner 2049 on Blu ray a few days ago.

Atmos through a proper setup, that I'm sure is crazy - though still not sure I need it per se.

elephant
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Thanks MM for the background - much appreciate the time you took

Like SandyB I too have attended at ATMOS demo - not sure whose equipment it was, but they upward firing speakers and sound mirrors over them to disperse the sound

I agree that I like others have great speaker setup — however we may see directors starting produce films that artistically rely on ATMOS hence my question.

I hope it is not a 3D flash in the pan !

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beojeff replied on Tue, Jun 5 2018 9:34 PM

Great explanation, MM.

I see the opportunity in B&O's product portfolio to have both: (1) a soundbar for those who want just one speaker for simulated 3d sound and (2) a new BeoSystem sound processor with more BeoLab connections for those of us who want a true home theater with multiple speakers.

I see this as an opportunity for B&O to sell more speakers. I currently have a 7.1 surround system with BeoLabs (although it actually has 2 subwoofers, but since there is only one subwoofer channel, it isn't truly 7.2). I would readily buy more speakers to add to my current BeoLab configuration to achieve Dolby Atmos.

Millemissen
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beojeff:

I see the opportunity in B&O's product portfolio to have both: (1) a soundbar for those who want just one speaker for simulated 3d sound and (2) a new BeoSystem sound processor with more BeoLab connections for those of us who want a true home theater with multiple speakers.

That is exactly what one may hope for.....

.....and for a ‘new’ BL3 with WPL/WiSA ;-)

MM

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Hiort
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Hiort replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:20 AM

Sandyb:
It's had decent reviews, I'll have to go and try it then.

Atmos through a proper setup, that I'm sure is crazy - though still not sure I need it per se.

Fully agree. I´m sure your setup sounds awesome and I would not trade that against any Atmos soundbar.

 

 

 

 

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Millemissen
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Hiort:

Sandyb:
It's had decent reviews, I'll have to go and try it then.

Atmos through a proper setup, that I'm sure is crazy - though still not sure I need it per se.

Fully agree. I´m sure your setup sounds awesome and I would not trade that against any Atmos soundbar.

Neither would I - I am (still) quite impressed with what my own 5.1/Avant-2014 setup brings.

I’d like to add a couple of hight speakers to the setup - I guess that would improve the sound of movies further.

It probably isn’t going to happen, though ;-(

 

BUT —— a ‘soundbar’ from B&O with included Dolby Atmos support would probably be a great upgrade for many costumers - and costumers are what B&O need.

 

MM

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 12:06 PM
No argument there

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beojeff replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 5:14 PM

I was curious about other formats and took at look at Auro-3D.

Um....doesn't that remote on their website looks quite familiar except for the blue button?!

 

https://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/

Millemissen
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That’s a BeAuro 7

MM

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 5:30 PM

This from Devialet, also fairly familiar no?

https://www.devialet.com/en-au/expert-pro-remote/

 

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 5:52 PM

I dont quite think its 3D, which even a few years ago when being pushed, was never likely to last.

Anyway, interesting that Sonos have just released their new sound-bar, without Atmos support.

The Verge article on the new Sonos Beam is worth a read.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/6/17431250/sonos-beam-soundbar-alexa-hdmi-arc-price-release-date

 

 

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Puncher replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:00 PM

Sandyb:

The Verge article on the new Sonos Beam is worth a read.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/6/17431250/sonos-beam-soundbar-alexa-hdmi-arc-price-release-date

 

 

Now that reads like the company has laser-sharp focus on what it's doing and why - isn't  that refreshing?

It's recognises the death knell of trying to cram it full of the latest and greatest, it isn't trying to compete with anything or anybody, merely to meet their own stated requirement to meet a simple design philosophy that they believe in with a well engineered product, built to last and with survivability a real consideration - all for $399!!

Are they making it all sound too simple or is b&o just making a complete dogs dinner of the whole shooting match?

Ban boring signatures!

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:24 PM

Well yes and no.

Not sure if you've watched the embedded video in the Verge article - worth the 5 minutes.

B&O Play and some BeoSounds are fairly open, supporting Chromecast, Airplay (2), and Bluetooth - which of course you might expect for the price. 

Sonos, as shown with this new product, are trying to be as open as possible as well, not just with respect to the above wireless protocols, but also by supporting both Alexa and Google Assistant (they'd add Siri if allowed . Its what i understand B&O will do as they build in voice support to future products.

So, i think Sonos are cramming it quite full - the main point Dieter Bohn makes is one very familiar to B&O customers. That by placing your product in the centre of a bunch of ecosystems, when one of those goes wrong, customers may just look at the Sonos sound bar and say "it's not working" and blame Sonos. 

Where they are impressive though, is that they are following the path Apple took - Apple leveraged to great success the traction they had with one product, the iPod, and went from there.

Sonos are trying to leverage their scalability in a similar way - the stat that 38% of Sonos first time buyers go on to buy further Sonos products was impressive to me, though not that surprising in hindsight.

That, i agree, is where they have an impressive focus - but its built on having established themselves as good at software and building a stable audio framework. They obviously have even most third party services more or less onside, Apple included.

So, some commonality with B&O products, in that by necessity they're becoming more complex and reliant on ecosystem connections, but many differences in terms of execution, where clearly B&O have been less than good. Sonos just have a much better core competency in software. 

And of course, execution in the end is most important aspect.

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:31 PM

And yes for 399, sounds like a very decent price.

I did like the demo showing the new sound bar turning on the tv and selecting content on voice command - all helped by Alexa working the HDMI CEC / ARC connection. 

I was shot down recently here for suggesting we are moving post-PUC.

If B&O ever release another BV, or a Beosystem style connection hub (dont shoot me, just saying "if") - it would come across as a bit old hat to use IR blasters.  

HDMI CEC may not be quite as good as PUC, but HDMI CEC + inbuilt voice seem likely to be even better.

 

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Puncher replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:41 PM

Except that he speaks of long product life and serviceability - i.e. it will not be superseded, dropped and forgotten within the year. He also mentions playing safe with the supported technologies and has targeted a specific function within the home whereby its limited-by-design features can potentially outperform (or at least be more useful than) some other products which may on the face of it have more functionality.

In short, they've actually thought the whole thing through! It has been designed with specific purpose rather than either "it-must-sell-if-we-fill-it-with-everything" or else "if-we-make-enough-variations-one-of-them-is-bound-to-sell" !!

Ban boring signatures!

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So, no need for Dolby Atmos from an ATV4/4K - if people go down the ‘safe route’ and buy the Sonos Beam!

MM

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:55 PM

Yes, agreed that is their stated intention.

The risk they run, as he states / implies, is that by making their full capability reliant on so many other things, that longevity may not quite come to pass.

Of course, more broadly i agree with you, they're clearly moving in a good direction, and they seem to know what they're doing both tech wise and relationship / brand wise.

(they are on to their 3rd sound bar in not that many years, the Playbase being still pretty new, so they're not entirely immune to throwing out numerous products).

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 7:59 PM

yeah, i think the Atmos thing is here to stay.

Its take up, with respect to home hardware, may be steady rather than spectacular though.

A full Atmos setup is a big endeavour, and some will do it in dedicated cinema rooms. But i can see the Atmos enabled sound-bars doing pretty well over the coming years. They seem like a relatively easy sell to more mainstream customers, even if they're not quite the full fat experience.

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Puncher replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:01 PM

Millemissen:

So, no need for Dolby Atmos from an ATV4/4K - if people go down the ‘safe route’ and buy the Sonos Beam!

MM

And here we go!

I'm not saying this product is the answer to life, the Universe and everything - I'm saying I'm impressed with the thinking behind it. I would equally commend similar focus and clarity from mothership Struer  - I would really like to but sadly, for fairly obvious reasons, I can't!

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:06 PM

resist the temptation señor.puncher....resist....

Millemissen
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Sandyb:

But i can see the Atmos enabled sound-bars doing pretty well over the coming years. They seem like a relatively easy sell to more mainstream customers, even if they're not quite the full fat experience.

That means, that they are aiming at the mainstream, mainstream market.

Might be wise, if you want to sell lots of devices.

How many will care for Dolby Atmos after all - once the hype of Apple adding Atmos support to the ATV has calmed down.

MM

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Millemissen
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For those interested - here is a bit more on the Sonos Beam:

https://vimeo.com/273739677

MM

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:22 PM

yeah, i dont think Atmos is going away.

Sonos will include Atmos capability at some point, they just dont think its urgent enough to ditch a product they've been working on for a while.

Lots of people buy sound bars - and will continue to. 

Lots of people are not bothered by 4K, but when they buy their next TV it will be 4K capable.

It will work the same for sound bars - Atmos may just become a standard capability on sound bars, and people just end up with capability whether they were desperately after it or not. The only impediment is if Atmos capable hardware is a lot more expensive, but Dolby wont get in their own way ultimately.

Having Apple on board does tend to give these things a bit of a push.

As for what B&O do with respect to Atmos, who on earth knows - lots of more pressing issues than Atmos inclusion i would suggest.

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:34 PM

My god, just watched the Vimeo video -  the second track they played by Radiohead is one i'm very familiar with ( i can play it on my guitar ), and boy did it sound quite bad (i know the video on my laptop is not perfectly representative, but still)

Someone shoot me if i ever buy a sound bar like this.

 

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Puncher replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:36 PM

Sandyb:

My god, just watched the Vimeo video -  the second track they played by Radiohead is one i'm very familiar with ( i can play it on my guitar ), and boy did it sound quite bad (i know the video on my laptop is not perfectly representative, but still)

Someone shoot me if i ever buy a sound bar like this.

 

So you would write off a speaker based upon the sound from your laptop that someone has probably recorded using a mobile phone??

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Sandyb replied on Wed, Jun 6 2018 8:49 PM

generally no, of course not.

I do know that track intimately though, have it in many digital and physical versions, and i use it to auction hardware.

I'm not a one point speaker person, so i do laugh when they talk of what a wonderful wide soundstage something like that sound bar has.

I'm sure it will make a very good centre channel - and even better when supplemented by a couple of Sonos speakers as rears. But thats a tv / movie system, not one that doubles as a decent music setup as well.

The very reason i came to B&O was that the one setup (TV plus a bunch of BeoLabs) works to a pretty high standard for both music and video.

Obviously whether they can still offer that going forward is not so clear anymore, with you on that one.

And i concede of course that that demo was me viewing an online video, so not easy to judge. But in this case, just underlined to me again why most home theatre setups, don't do it for me music wise. It sounded awfully constrained. 

 

 

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Available on Juli 17. - go listen!

MM

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Jeff replied on Thu, Jun 7 2018 1:00 AM

Sandyb:

yeah, i dont think Atmos is going away.

Sonos will include Atmos capability at some point, they just dont think its urgent enough to ditch a product they've been working on for a while.

Lots of people buy sound bars - and will continue to. 

Lots of people are not bothered by 4K, but when they buy their next TV it will be 4K capable.

It will work the same for sound bars - Atmos may just become a standard capability on sound bars, and people just end up with capability whether they were desperately after it or not. The only impediment is if Atmos capable hardware is a lot more expensive, but Dolby wont get in their own way ultimately.

Having Apple on board does tend to give these things a bit of a push.

As for what B&O do with respect to Atmos, who on earth knows - lots of more pressing issues than Atmos inclusion i would suggest.

The problem I see with Atmos is that it's hard enough to find a lot of people willing to do what's required, room setup, wiring, etc. to even do a proper 5.1 setup, let alone 7.1/7.2 or Atmos. Atmos requires even more speakers, even more restrictive setup options to do properly. For those willing to do the work, if (big IF I think) there's enough content pushed out, it will undoubtedly be spectacular. It would also be wonderful for music, but I doubt anyone will release anything more than a sampler or two in Atmos for music alone. Out of all my friends, I am one of three people who has a proper and properly setup and adjusted 5.1 system, and I've been chasing that since the 80s.

One of the reasons I think the Yamaha sound bars are so clever. While not the equal of a true 5.1 setup, they can get amazingly close while not requiring people to string speaker wires and mount speakers all around the room. I remember hearing the very first one a long time ago, and picking my jaw up off the floor at how well it did surround. A truly innovative and clever design.

Jeff

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Sandyb replied on Thu, Jun 7 2018 1:20 AM

Agreed, very few of my peer group have a 5.1 set up. Not an issue of finding people to install it, more a question of not caring enough to hook everything up through an additional AV receiver. Those who have own huge places with dedicated cinema rooms, but they're in the extreme minority.

And yes, i agree, the Atmos enabled sound bars will sell, as much by default as by design. A relatively easy sell, what with Netflix and Apple TV adding Atmos content. 

I'm sure the reception the Yamaha has had is merited, in so far as it helps get a good way down the road, and gives you a decent modern movie setup. Not sure why some are questioning whether Atmos has a future - more similar products will assume Atmos support, thus normalising it.

I dont quite think though, for all their cleverness, that an Atmos enabled sound bar will be transformative vs my 5.1 Beolab set up, which is still pretty ridiculous for watching movies. And that same setup works superbly for music. 

What i did like about the Sonos Beam presentation was the voice integration / HDMI (ARC/CEC) combo - that was nice, only if it shows a bunch of IR blasters are not necessary. 

**sidenote. Was reading 9to5Mac article on the Sonos Beam, and many of the comments echoed my previous thoughts i.e. the bigger Play-bar doesnt have a great soundstage, and commenters were sceptical that the smaller Beam was any different, or any good for music. 

 

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Sandyb:

What i did like about the Sonos Beam presentation was the voice integration / HDMI (ARC/CEC) combo - that was nice, only if it shows a bunch of IR blasters are not necessary. 

What was presentated there all came from internal sources of the tv - and the Beam has only one HDMI (for ARC connecting to the tv).

No need for PUC’s there - in fact not even possible!

On the other hand - if that is what people want, this (limited) CEC-controlling will be fine, I guess.

As for voice controlling - seems cool.....I would not want to talk to my tv —— but that’s just me.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

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