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Future B&O

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Puncher
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Puncher posted on Thu, Nov 23 2017 10:16 AM

Meliora:

You are spot on. All engineers that worked on Eclipse and BeoLab50 has left the company. They where all laid off between may and October 2017. The company has no engineering left (only the aluminium factory that rumors say is for sale). In future the functions left will be design, purchasing, sourcing and some support functions left. Rest is RIP.

The future vision of B&O management is to run the business as a Beoplay business unit. That means all engineering in the future will happen at subcontractors in China and production will be handled by Chinese controlled Thyphany factory in Czech.

I will not buy B&O anymore because of this decission - I don't want a LG TV with a chinese speaker box attached. I think I would be better off with a LG TV with an LG soundbar. At least you know the two parts will be compatible.

I think BeoLab 90 and 50 are the last real Danish B&O icons.

The above was posted in the Eclipse thread. Can anyone confirmed whether this is true? 

If this is indeed the future will the products be "sourced", in which case B&O are still responsible for warranty/support etc., or "licensed" in which case total product liability is the licensee's in which case B&O are only printing their name on someone elses product for a fee.

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Calvin
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Answered (Verified) Calvin replied on Thu, Nov 23 2017 3:18 PM
Verified by AnalogPlanet

I think the key comparison is to Apple which moved everything to Asia. It's not necessarily a bad thing, unless you're Danish I suppose and see local production as a key intangible aspect of the product. If it's well designed I don't really care where it's made as long as the quality controls are in place, the days of China only being able to manufacture cheap rubbish are long gone. Yes they specialise in cheap bad manufacturing but they also do a good line in cheap(er) high quality manufacturing.

Opening up an old Apple product is a joy, new products are unserviceable but that doesn't mean I'm ditching MacBooks any time soon, there's far more to my product choice. I will agree it is somewhat sad in a way but every industry sector is the same, you could equally complain 40 years ago about car production lines replacing humans with 'soulless' robots and demand refuse to drink from wine glasses that weren't hand blown. I prefer one over the other but as I'm not a billionaire I'd rather pay half as much if I'm pushed to choose one over the other.

Roger
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Answered (Verified) Roger replied on Thu, Nov 23 2017 6:12 PM
Verified by Meliora

From my post on the Eclipse - copy & paste:

I can confirm the info from Meliora.

A consequence is also that the integration with the old ML is soon to be lost (the NL/ML converter is already in the history books, no replacement). The connection and interaction will be via "native" apps on your phone such as Apple Music, Deezer, Spotify etc to stream music - both locally and to multi-rooms - in the not too distant future. The good thing is that you can mix any Spotify Connect or AirPlay 2 compatible product with the B&O gear - you do not need to go all-in on B&O. But....and there is a big but.... B&O as we know it is more or less about to change drastically seen from a BeoWorlders point of view. 

And as Meliora points out - the success of BeoPlay indicates that this is what the market wants. 

The strategy makes sense, IMHO, for a BeoSound 2 - not so much for a BeoVision, which should be the heart and brain of my home network. But, not anymore.

Roger

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355f
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355f replied on Thu, Nov 23 2017 8:30 PM

9 LEE:

I was unaware that so many people had been laid off..  

Talking about myself here.. As I get older, I get more suspicious, then I start looking at the story behind the story. 

Did Tue Mantoni see the certain demise of the company coming?  He got paid lots and lots of cheap shares instead of cash (I was told it was his decision) - and was this because his main aim was to inflate the share price, sell them, and make a fortune?  I mean, what a great signal of good intentions to want to be paid in shares. Looks good to everyone, doesn't it.  It's a PR thumbs-up, and a very shrewd move from a McKinsey trained and very savvy businessman with lots of contacts.

Inflating the share price means the board and the Bang and Olufsen families either had a chance to bail out of their shares for a good price, or the company would be an attractive purchase for someone as the books looked good. Maybe the books don't look good once you turn the pages, otherwise someone would have bought B&O by now? 

I'd love to know how many shares Tue has left, and how many of the family and boards shares have been sold.  I think that would reveal a few things.

As I've found out - to the cost of my own B&O business, the world has changed. AV has changed. B&O isn't the all-powerful name it once was, and that once great name has been ridden like a mule up a mountain for too long now. 

The Danish will always be great designers. No doubt. 

But, when people demand Danish design, Made in Denmark, at China prices, it all falls apart.

Lee

 

 

For the past Fifteen years I have been involved in the manufacture of audio in China, and of course have ( or had) a very keen interest in B&O

Was this a 'shrewd move' from Mr Mantoni.??

Decimate the brand as most knew it to be, outsource a new range of poorly designed products to China, move all TV production to LG and brand it B&O.

Fairly typical for an individual with no real vision but hey! the share price has risen at the cost of a huge number of jobs- so an unmitigated success then!!

The wonder is that there are still people on here prepared to pay nearly 10K for an LG TV that probably costs $2K FOB 

For all this apparent 'success' B&O has lost most of its brand recognition and the only hope is to keep the sales alive with a few blind millionaires and ever increasing non repairable 'play' products to swamp the market and compete with all the other companies at the same game.

No one has bought B&O because it sold its soul when Mr Mantoni took the helm.

As for the dealers they should exit tis market now, while they can before they all lose their shirts

 

 

 

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Thu, Nov 23 2017 9:06 PM

Emil Jensen:

I think you underestimate the market with license and headphone.

Look at Beats audio,

Look at B&O car audio.

 

The math works out.

B&O car audio is owned by Harman now, and they are doing to it exactly what they do to all the lines they purchase. My friend worked there for years in car audio before moving to Panasonic. Harman turns out JBL car systems, Infinity car systems, B&O car systems, etc. but under the label and different grills they are all the same components and design and modules. I haven't heard how ICE Power is doing since it's been sold.

As for the Eclipse being the best TV ever, not true. The Sony, Philips, and Loewe incarnations of the same LG OLED panel have all been rated superior in motion processing, and most likely will be in color rendition as well, as the native LG panel B&O uses without modification is not as well regarded as the other three in that regard either.

Tue "saved" B&O the same way that OCP "saved" Murphy's life in Robocop.

Jeff

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Emil Jensen
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Guys when you called the Eclipse a rebranded LG, I am lost for words, it is just sorry to say a very ignorant phrasing.

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Emil Jensen
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Jeff:

Emil Jensen:

I think you underestimate the market with license and headphone.

Look at Beats audio,

Look at B&O car audio.

 

The math works out.

B&O car audio is owned by Harman now, and they are doing to it exactly what they do to all the lines they purchase. My friend worked there for years in car audio before moving to Panasonic. Harman turns out JBL car systems, Infinity car systems, B&O car systems, etc. but under the label and different grills they are all the same components and design and modules. I haven't heard how ICE Power is doing since it's been sold.

As for the Eclipse being the best TV ever, not true. The Sony, Philips, and Loewe incarnations of the same LG OLED panel have all been rated superior in motion processing, and most likely will be in color rendition as well, as the native LG panel B&O uses without modification is not as well regarded as the other three in that regard either.

Tue "saved" B&O the same way that OCP "saved" Murphy's life in Robocop.

The B&O car audio was sold off, and thats my point, see how much money they got for a name! but the name have only value if there is Bang & Olufsen products.

If you take reviewers word for it, the Eclipse is the best TV ever. If you only measure a tv for the picture, I wonder if you only then review a car for its ability to go from 0-100 ? (Or another single minded ability)

And your color comment, Eclipse have Dolby Vision, Philips and Loewe, have not, and Sony is still holding its software back. And I give 0% for a motion Processing that you have to turn off any way if you have any respect for the true vision of a movie.

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Jeff
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Jeff replied on Thu, Nov 23 2017 9:24 PM

Well, heaven help me for judging a TV by it's, you know, picture. I should be happy then with an old Magnavox B&O round tube set if it has BL90s on the sides of it. Lawdy!

Jeff

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Puncher
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Emil Jensen:
They do not provide the display, the picture chip, and 90% of the interface.

Lets be clear, you yourself acknowledge the TV part is not B&O, the "so many more features" you expound are all in the sound bar (and stand).

Even the Trustedreviews review that people were quoting yesterday as a pointer to how good a product it is says, "

"the design is achieved by literally slotting an LG OLED55C7 screen into the top of the soundbar. B&O makes no effort to hide the fact that the TV element is from LG".

It is an LG TV with a B&O stand and soundsystem (with all the benefits that may bring to you) - no matter what you keep telling yourself.

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svinaik
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Emil

Please get your facts right. Loewe has Dolby Vision and has it for a long time. Saying that processing does not matter to you just shows either ignorance or blind devotion.

I agree with you that Eclipse is not rebranded but a full blown LG TV (pun intended) with B&O sound bar. 

AngloApulian
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Emil Jensen:

And your color comment, Eclipse have Dolby Vision, Philips and Loewe, have not, and Sony is still holding its software back.

You need to recheck your facts. The latest Loewe TVs (bild 4, 5, 7 & 9 models) all have Dolby Vision and far superior image processing than the LG C7 which is what the Eclipse uses.

The only thing the Eclipse has going for it is the sound and that’s about it. It s basically a rebadged LG C7 with a motorised stand and 450 watt soundbar.
Emil Jensen
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First of all, sorry about saying Loewe dont have dolby vision, my mistake.

I have always turned pro motion, or what they else have called fancy system, completely off. And I am not the only one.

You guys keep saying that Loewe is better, and I will not get into details if you eyes can judge this.

But we should agree that the eclipse in the top 5 in picture quality in the world, and B&O have never been up there, especially when we talk about new technology. Other models have used old displays or anyways have after a year been behind(Hopefully this will change with LG)

I think that the earth have turned upside down when it is needed to specify what you get ekstra with a B&O television on a B&O fan forum.

Lets compare to a LG C7, you get ekstra:

You get 2 tuner for recording 

You get picture in picture

You get a full blown surround processor in worldclass with interface on the TV

You get a full multiroom capable sound system

You get Airplay

You get chromecast

You get Tune in

You get one of the best remote in the world

You get a full PUC system to control third party

You get storage space for a Apple tv

You get option for a motoricestand with to axle

You get option for a flowding motor wall mount

You get the best sound from a TV in the world

You get both 3.0 and 1.0 sound option from the tv

You get WISA best wireless speaker system in the world

World class design (In my personal taste)

 

Oh no sorry i forgot it is just a rebranded TV, come on guys!

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Emil Jensen
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Jeff:

Well, heaven help me for judging a TV by it's, you know, picture. I should be happy then with an old Magnavox B&O round tube set if it has BL90s on the sides of it. Lawdy!

I have one question for you, do you think Rolls Royce any model is better then a Mercedes S600 ?

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beojeff
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beojeff replied on Fri, Nov 24 2017 12:26 AM

I'm lost by Emil's attempt at logic. B&O has always been about sound quality and integration. Arguing the merits of a single TV is just daft.  B&O is not about a single TV -- which has very short and fleeting value. It's about the enduring quality of sound as a home system. 

Razlaw
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Razlaw replied on Fri, Nov 24 2017 1:13 AM
Emil Jensen:

First of all, sorry about saying Loewe dont have dolby vision, my mistake.

I have always turned pro motion, or what they else have called fancy system, completely off. And I am not the only one.

You guys keep saying that Loewe is better, and I will not get into details if you eyes can judge this.

But we should agree that the eclipse in the top 5 in picture quality in the world, and B&O have never been up there, especially when we talk about new technology. Other models have used old displays or anyways have after a year been behind(Hopefully this will change with LG)

I think that the earth have turned upside down when it is needed to specify what you get ekstra with a B&O television on a B&O fan forum.

Lets compare to a LG C7, you get ekstra:

You get 2 tuner for recording

You get picture in picture

You get a full blown surround processor in worldclass with interface on the TV

You get a full multiroom capable sound system

You get Airplay

You get chromecast

You get Tune in

You get one of the best remote in the world

You get a full PUC system to control third party

You get storage space for a Apple tv

You get option for a motoricestand with to axle

You get option for a flowding motor wall mount

You get the best sound from a TV in the world

You get both 3.0 and 1.0 sound option from the tv

You get WISA best wireless speaker system in the world

World class design (In my personal taste)

Oh no sorry i forgot it is just a rebranded TV, come on guys!

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Great post! Agree completely.
davidr
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davidr replied on Fri, Nov 24 2017 2:38 AM

Emil Jensen:

Lets compare to a LG C7, you get ekstra:

Right, at least over here in the frozen north, a LG C7 costs around 2-3k compared to Ecplise at around 20k.

That's quite the mental gymnastics to justify a soundbar and stand. And yes I already get all that functionality via an AppleTV & Logitech Harmony which works perfectly not tied to a particular brand, every time. Plus I can upgrade to a W7 without having to scrap everything.

If I didn't really have my LG OLED either next year or so I'm going to import a Loewe. Still keep the beolabs of course but they're not exclusive to Beovisions.

Mikipidia
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Emil Jensen:

Lets compare to a LG C7, you get ekstra:

You get 2 tuner for recording

You get picture in picture

You get storage space for a Apple tv

As an eclipse owner here i have to correct this a little.

1.Here in my bit of europe, cable companies work with ci+ modules(cable card) for hd tv. So therefore i can’t use the two tuner option(as it’s not really there in the way any normal person would read the spec sheet or manual). The only option is record hd and watch sd content and vice versa. This has made me furious, but apparently my dealer told me i can move house to another region where it’s subscribtion based without ci+ modules. It does have dual satelite tuners, but here for sat tv hd rating is 720i at best. So that’s a big no go. Somehow this is the fault of my cable provider and not b&o advertising when it does state dual tuner in the manual etc.

2. The same goes for picture in picture, the ci+(cable card) can only decode one stream of hd content at a time. So sd and hd is fine, but NOT hd with hd.

3. As you can not pause live tv on a usb drive(regardless of speed mb/s or size) i had to get an external hdd. The next problem became space, at the most obvious place they don’t fit with the ci+ module installed so i’t now in the main area behind the screen. This also isn’t fantastic because the cable route that is available(hmdi cec to soundbar route) doesn’t leave enough clearance for the usb cable to also pass through with the side cover on. So i’ll have to modify that someday soon by cutting/filing a notch out of the plastic.

Now coming to the “space” for the apple tv, i don’t think it’s there internally although i haven’t tried. I use an ultra slim 2.5” hdd from seagate which is under 10mm high. I do have some extra room in there but not much more than 3-4mm maybe 5mm. So unless the apple tv is 15ish millimeter in height, it won’t fit on the interior of the tv. The deepest i’ve measured so far was 25mm i think, but those places had length and width limitations.

I do like the picture quality though, if it’s not the best it’s so damn near close that with normal/enthusiast viewing you would never notice unless you have something better side by side. And even then it’s more like a 98% - 100% difference compared to a 85% - 100% difference wich it often souds like people are saying on here. So i gues my conclusion on the picture aspect is that probably everybody is right in saying the picture isn’t the best, but it’s sooooo close that it’s almost margin of error(freeze frame stuff).

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Razlaw
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Razlaw replied on Fri, Nov 24 2017 3:35 AM
Comparing the price of a Beovision to another TV is ridiculous. Nobody buys a B and O TV because of the value of it. Just as nobody buys a Bentley, for instance, because of it’s value. Obviously if you look at the specifications one could find any number of cars that would out perform and have more features than a Bentley for less money.

And who cares where the screen comes from. The new Aston Martin Vantage has a Mercedes AMG engine in it, Mercedes electronics, and a touchpad straight out of the current Mercedes models. But I am certain Aston Martin will sell every Vantage they can make.

Bang and Olufsen is a luxury product and the price of a luxury product can never be justified in comparison to other products.

People either like individual Bang and Olufsen products or they do not.

Similarly the price may make sense to some and not to others. Personally, the price of the Eclipse looks like a bargain to me when I think of the $8,500 I paid 17 years ago for a 32 inch Avant or the fact that my 7-55 cost thousands of dollars more than a 55 inch Eclipse.

Will I buy an Eclipse? I don’t know. I have yet to see one in person.

But from the pictures, reviews, and features of it, I do like it very much.

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