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Moment vs. Core - the final countdown...

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seethroughyou
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seethroughyou Posted: Sat, Sep 23 2017 8:43 PM

 

 

 

Dear Beoworlders,

I was all set to go with a Core for next week’s installation of my Beolab 90s when I made the mistake of asking the frugal wife what she’d prefer and she came back with an answer that somewhat surprised me. The patholgical doubting in me now starts....

Most of my music in on a NAS in FLAC 16 bit / 44.1khz. I have a fraction of this in proper Linn high resolution 24 bit / 96 or 192 khz.

As well as pulling music off my NAS I will also be using Deezer which I’ve enjoyed a trial of in the last few weeks.

 

Here is a list of for and against:

Moment For:

  • We both like the wood and general looks (despite the embedded tablet could have been designed better) but we prefer it to the usual iPad.
  • It avoids any distractions of using an iPad in the listening room (we discussed this and we are both terrible at checking emails, organising Xmas food lists, checking calendars, you name it we end up being distracted by our iPhones even whilst watching TV…
  • Wireless digital streaming (max 24 bit / 48 khz) so no cables running everywhere under carpets – the wife hates cables and no matter how well the install the carpet doesn’t lend itself to cables appearing from between the skirting boards and carpets.
  • Seems to be close to having all its software problems sorted after a tedious 2 years so we’re buying it near maturation.

 

Moment Against:

  • Wireless digital streaming (max 24 bit / 48 khz) – converts any 96khz or 192 khz to 48 khz – can you really tell though due to Geoff’s postings this week about how good ADC and DACs are now in terms of dynamic range?
  • Core from what I’ve read can action the same functions with an iPad at half the price.
  • Some say the GUI is ‘claustrophobic’
  • Some say it’s easier and faster to find a track with Beomusic App.
  • TOTAL = £1950

 

Beosound Core For:

  • Can be hidden away.
  • Streams up to 24 bit / 192 khz across DPL.
  • Only £600 + £400 iPad + need to buy a charging pod/station for the ipad to look nice rather than just sitting on the sideboard – factor in £50. TOTAL £1050.

 

Beosound Core Against:

  • Relatively new and not many have had any experience with it.
  • Hardwired to BL90 with Digital PowerLink so no chance of dropouts/interference.
  • Whilst using the iPad to access music/change volume, prone to checking emails, organising Xmas food lists, checking calendars, you name it, social media….thus ruining the ultimate listening experience.
  • Could the GUI be just as ‘claustrophobic’ as the Moment’s?
  • Could the Beomusic App be just as difficult to find a track compared to Moment?

 

I’m sure I’ve missed a few points off this list. What are your observations, experiences and what would you go for?

 

96 Normal 0 false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE

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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

.

vikinger
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vikinger replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 9:01 PM

seethroughyou:
I was all set to go with a Core for next week’s installation of my Beolab 90s

seethroughyou replied on Sun, Sep 10 2017 7:07 PM 

"Does anyone know how much a dealer used/demo pair go for now? There are quite a few stuck with dealers either in showrooms or in their back storage around Europe. I need some advice on a fair price for a two year old Beolab 90s. I'm thinking £35,000-£40,000. Is this the right territory? I have dreams at night, waking up on Xmas morning to see a pair sat in my living room twinkling under the Xmas tree lights. May be or may be not...."

 Well, that was quick.... Christmas  apparently arrived early!

Graham

seethroughyou
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The wife has a habit of asking me what i want for Xmas, buying my presents 3-4 months early, taking them off me a few days before, wrapping them up and presenting them on Xmas morning. She will need to buy a few rolls of wrapping paper for this present!

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 9:14 PM

vikinger:

....fair price for a two year old Beolab 90s. I'm thinking £35,000-£40,000. Is this the right territory? I have dreams at night, waking up on Xmas morning to see a pair sat in my living room twinkling under the Xmas tree lights. May be or may be not...."

 

Exeter is selling a pair for £41K - 36 months old: http://stores.bang-olufsen.com/great-britain/bang-olufsen-of-exeter/pre-owned/beolab-90

seethroughyou
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The BL90s have been ordered. Now it's Moment vs. Core decision time...

 

I'm so excited I can't stop thinking about their arrival. Be prepared for seismic activity orginating from Hertfordshire, UK come Wednesday evening!

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

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vikinger
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vikinger replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 9:20 PM

So do we deduce that the BL90 is over priced/ not selling? Good news for some buyers, but not good for B&O unless they just wanted a few out there as a lead product advertising their capabilities.

Graham

vikinger
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vikinger replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 9:22 PM

seethroughyou:

The BL90s have been ordered. Now it's Moment vs. Core decision time...

I'm so excited I can't stop thinking about their arrival. Be prepared for seismic activity orginating from Hertfordshire, UK come Wednesday evening!

Apologies for diverting the thread. Enjoy your new purchase!

Graham

Millemissen
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A few comments to your initial posting:

I have never understood the fear of distraction coming from using an iPad as your music controller.

Why would anyone be forced to 'organize food list, check mails and calendars' whilst using an iPad.

The iPad does what you have allowed it to do!

It is very easy to 'criple' an iPad to be used exclusively for e.g. the Beomusic app - just turn off any distraction, respectively don't install this or that....

You could even run it in kiosk mode.

I am sure it will last all day and can be charged at night.

 

However, the decision to use either the BS Moment or a dedicated iPad with a BS Core is your own.

 

By the way - who told you that you can use the DPL output for connecting the BS Core to the BL90 master???

As far as I am aware the DPL output is 'for future use'....still!

 

Personally - with the BS Moment - I would run the 90's with a cabled connection - I would be fine with the PL connection.

Only if that is not possible, I would choose the WiSA/WPL connection ------ you will have to hardwire the slave speaker to the master speaker anyway.

 

And congrats on your new babies ;-)

 

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 10:06 PM

Millemissen:

I have never understood the fear of distraction coming from using an iPad as your music controller.

Why would anyone be forced to 'organize food list, check mails and calendars' whilst using an iPad.

Correct. I have an iPad Mini that I only use for controlling music and radio, streamed to various devices. A lot cheaper than buying a Moment, a lot more effective and I don't get distracted from it as it has almost nothing installed.

Millemissen
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I have done rhe same - with my 'old' iPad Mini - a long time now.

Not because it is cheaper - I simply prefer using the Beomusic app (and Spotify) to using the 'music machine BS Moment'.

It has some drawbacks - you have to push a couple more 'buttons', but I can live with that.

However, I have my 'normal' iPad at hand, when I need to 'organize Xmas food lists'.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Sal
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Sal replied on Sat, Sep 23 2017 10:32 PM

One thing to consider if you have a large music collection, the Moment offers Search (albeit, I think it was first letter only, maybe that has changed). The current iteration of the B&O App does not offer any search function. There is an "INDEX" function if you use TwonkyServer, but it is not a true search, you'll still be scrolling and scrolling. The SW team says that text search is coming for DLNA, but when, who knows?

Congratulations on your purchase! Have you considered a non B&O music system to connect to your BL90s?

Millemissen
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Personally I'd pick an OPPO player in addition to a Moment/Core, if I had the 90's.

(And a BeoVision, of course).

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

seethroughyou
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Millemissen:

A few comments to your initial posting:

I have never understood the fear of distraction coming from using an iPad as your music controller.

Why would anyone be forced to 'organize food list, check mails and calendars' whilst using an iPad.

The iPad does what you have allowed it to do!

It is very easy to 'criple' an iPad to be used exclusively for e.g. the Beomusic app - just turn off any distraction, respectively don't install this or that....

You could even run it in kiosk mode.

I am sure it will last all day and can be charged at night.

 

However, the decision to use either the BS Moment or a dedicated iPad with a BS Core is your own.

 

By the way - who told you that you can use the DPL output for connecting the BS Core to the BL90 master???

As far as I am aware the DPL output is 'for future use'....still!

 

Personally - with the BS Moment - I would run the 90's with a cabled connection - I would be fine with the PL connection.

Only if that is not possible, I would choose the WiSA/WPL connection ------ you will have to hardwire the slave speaker to the master speaker anyway.

 

And congrats on your new babies ;-)

 

MM

 

1. I didn't know of the KIOSK MODE function on the iPad and have just looked this up. This is a brilliant idea to prevent any unwanted diversions/temptations!

2. Yes, i know the decision is entriely my own but i'm looking for experience from those that have either product and can share their wisdom/ideas..

3. I was told by the dealer to use DPL out from Core into DPL in on the BL90.

4. I cant see anything wrong with using the WiSA/WPL connection either despite it being limited to 24bit/48khz - even recording engineers think for final mastering copies that 16 bit/44.1 is enough.

Thank you MM

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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

.

seethroughyou
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Sal:

One thing to consider if you have a large music collection, the Moment offers Search (albeit, I think it was first letter only, maybe that has changed). The current iteration of the B&O App does not offer any search function. There is an "INDEX" function if you use TwonkyServer, but it is not a true search, you'll still be scrolling and scrolling. The SW team says that text search is coming for DLNA, but when, who knows?

Congratulations on your purchase! Have you considered a non B&O music system to connect to your BL90s?

1. I didnt know that you couldnt search with the Beomusic App - this function is critical for me as i often come home and the mood wheel in my head tells me just what album it wants to hear and what sort of alcoholic beverage to pour.

2. I was told that Twonky is no longer needed for the Beosound Moment, since software updates, and that it will read the QNAP without recourse to such software. 

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

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Sal
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Sal replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 12:52 AM

seethroughyou:

1. I didnt know that you couldnt search with the Beomusic App - this function is critical for me as i often come home and the mood wheel in my head tells me just what album it wants to hear and what sort of alcoholic beverage to pour.

2. I was told that Twonky is no longer needed for the Beosound Moment, since software updates, and that it will read the QNAP without recourse to such software. 

1. Free Text Entry Based Search is what I am referring to - that function is NOT available for music which doesn't exist on the iDevice itself. That is, if you have music accessed via DLNA, then, no, BeoMusic / B&O App cannot search. The Moment, might be able to, but as I mentioned, the first letter of an artist isn't "search" to me.

2. I only mentioned Twonky as TwonkyServer implements an INDEX feature which is accessible by whatever  DLNA receiver is being used. It gives the user an ABC, DEF, GHI, etc. Category which makes whittling down to what the user wants slightly easier... Again: to me, this also is not Search.

I've been waiting for DLNA Search as the key to truly enjoying being in total control of my music. It hasn't happened. I have an Auralic Aries Mini on order to see if it'll replace my Essence MkII. Hence, I've asked if you have considered a non B&O music system, as basic functionality for the way people consume music is glaringly missing, especially for those like you and I, with large libraries accessed via DLNA, and want to listen right away to exactly what we'd like to listen to, without much fuss.

I'm sick and tired of scrolling. LOL

beojeff
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beojeff replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 1:16 AM

An additional consideration is that you can still aways use the Bang & Olufsen iOS app in addition to the hands-on interface of the Moment. After short of month with my Moment, I have come to love it. In fact, I just ordered a SECOND Moment for my bedroom. To me, the interface of the Moment is very intuitive and fast. Whereas, using an iOS app takes more navigation. For example, if you find something that you like, you simple swipe up and that song/album/artist is added to your liked collection. I can still always use the iOS app. However, I've found that I don't.

Also, with the Essence or Core hidden away, you lose the "magic" and physical beauty of B&O. The Moment keeps that physical magic and has your system always right at hand for use. You can even add an Essence Remote.

steve1977
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steve1977 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 2:15 AM

The Moment is per se a lot more powerful compared to the Beomusic app. I have always been inclined to buy one. What has been stopping me is that it is incredibly buggy (see other threads). Would suggest to try it with your DLNA server.

Bugs aside, it is superior as it indexes your library and also Deezer. This is something the Beomusic app cannot do. Even if the Beomusic app were to have a search function (which it currently does not), it would still be slow. Also, the Moment offers the moodwheel if you care.

Let me throw in another option. If you cannot make the Moment work for your setup, you can always go with 3rd party apps and use airplay. Airplay is gapless (which DLNA with the Beomusic app and the Moment is not). And there are nice 3rd party apps that allow you to stream from your DLNA server via airplay to the Core or even an AE or Playmaker.

Mr 10Percent
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In my main listening / TV room, I drive the BL90's with an Avant - hard wired. Oppo 203 for DVD, Netflix, and high res CD playback. WD EX4000 NAS for music over power Lan, using the Avants render (and pedestrian search function) IPad for the 3 rooms upstairs on Essence mk2 served via the NAS. A BS5 via converter - rarely used now (Avants web radio preferred) links in but the music quality via the link seems somewhat tainted. I find I use the Avants render with the BR1 the most and Essence remotes 2nd. iPad/Beo App rarely as the interface in both the new and old versions is still clunky and not very intuitive, being similar to the Avant in many ways. What B&O really need is a BeoSound 90 with high end data transfer to the transducer, coupled with everything good in the BS5, Moment ans Essence (plus a few regular features found in Sonos et al) with a drop-dead interface (iPad, propriatory or both). B&O just need to link the dots and join it all together; MOTs, Moments engine, Dezzer, Tidal, your own library etc....rather than offer piecemeal in each offering.
seethroughyou
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Mr 10Percent:
  What B&O really need is a BeoSound 90 with high end data transfer to the transducer, coupled with everything good in the BS5, Moment ans Essence (plus a few regular features found in Sonos et al) with a drop-dead interface (iPad, propriatory or both). B&O just need to link the dots and join it all together; MOTs, Moments engine, Dezzer, Tidal, your own library etc....rather than offer piecemeal in each offering.

The Moment can transfer music using the WiSA/WPL which is 24 bit / 48khz - is this not sufficently high quality or is it noticeably inferior to the Core in this regard?

 

http://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/newbies/24bit-48khz-vs-24bit-96khz-159636/

https://recording.org/threads/24-bit-96khz-vs-24-bit-48-khz-final-round.1883/

 

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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

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seethroughyou
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DUPLICATE

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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

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Mr 10Percent
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seethroughyou:

The Moment can transfer music using the WiSA/WPL which is 24 bit / 48khz - is this not sufficently high quality and inferior to the Core in this regard?

 

it may well be but you are always safe with a bit of paired bell wire. Brain tumours minimised during your listening pleasure.

 

bs206
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bs206 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 12:07 PM

Sal:

1. Free Text Entry Based Search is what I am referring to - that function is NOT available for music which doesn't exist on the iDevice itself. That is, if you have music accessed via DLNA, then, no, BeoMusic / B&O App cannot search. The Moment, might be able to, but as I mentioned, the first letter of an artist isn't "search" to me.

The Moment has a full search function for DLNA to, works great! Swipe up and you can search by, artist, title, album in your DLNA collection.

mbolo01
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mbolo01 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 12:28 PM

seethroughyou:
2. I was told that Twonky is no longer needed for the Beosound Moment, since software updates, and that it will read the QNAP without recourse to such software.

Any DLNA server should do the job really, but being a QNAP owner myself, I do prefer the speed and quality of indexing that Twonky provides v.s. native QNAP DLNA server ..... I even paid for Twonky once no longer EOM supported by QNAP.

The Moment itself consumes what is being processed by the DLNA server, so the better the DLNA server is, the better the Moment will be to manage the DLNA collection.

BS Moment, BS Core, BG 4002, BC 4500, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, P6 (tks Botty), H5, TR1

mbolo01
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mbolo01 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 12:29 PM

bs206:
The Moment has a full search function for DLNA to, works great! Swipe up and you can search by, artist, title, album in your DLNA collection.

Fully agree, this was the greatest improvement of v 2.1

BS Moment, BS Core, BG 4002, BC 4500, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, P6 (tks Botty), H5, TR1

Sal
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Sal replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 3:19 PM

bs206:
The Moment has a full search function for DLNA to, works great! Swipe up and you can search by, artist, title, album in your DLNA collection.

Is this a full free text entry search? 

bs206
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bs206 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 3:57 PM

Yes, the same search field as Deezer, the Moment make a separation between DLNA and Deezer results  if there is a result in your DLNA collection.

mbolo01
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mbolo01 replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 5:09 PM

Sample: Looking for Fink, I selected the albums search results (+99 albums with Fink word inside), on the left side an album with Fink in the name that I have in my DLNA library (Ma musique = My Music), and on the right side the Deezer search results with albums from Fink artist and as you scroll on the right you'll also have other albums with Fink in artist or album name (sorry for the image quality and labels are in French)

BS Moment, BS Core, BG 4002, BC 4500, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, P6 (tks Botty), H5, TR1

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 5:53 PM

tricky choice...i bought a Moment about 5 months ago, for the following (similar reasons)

-  i.e. i wanted a separate non-distracting device, and in that sense it has achieved what i wanted. 

-  i wanted to access my CD library, which it achieves once i ripped it all in FLAC onto a NAS

- and also the one device gives me radio, of which i listen to a lot.

So job well done, more or less.

I would say this though - if you count yourself as a bit more sensitive than most to value for money type feelings ( i don't too much, but i'm a bit irrational), then the Moment may leave you feeling that its not really worth the money.  I have that feeling very very occasionally, but not so that it has coloured my enjoyment of it. But again, i can more easily than most cast such feelings, however occasional, aside. The feeling comes more from the fact thats its not as slick and responsive as modern iPads / iPhones, and going from one or other to the Moment does feel like you're stepping back a few years.

I haven't had too many issues with it - i have a modest FLAC DLNA library (300 albums) on a QNAP, and minor album cover issues aside (it doesn't always pick the one from my library, but not the end of the world), its fine.

So its fine, it does its job for me - and most specifically, when i want to switch everything else off (phones, TV, laptops etc) and just listen to some music, i do really value having it around.  And yes, a basic iPad + Essence / Core can approximate, but its swings and roundabouts - if there was a fully featured and up and running B&O iPad app, its a worthy alternative combination - but i would doubt that will be fully realised for 9-12 months.

 

seethroughyou
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Thanks Sandyb,

It seems like the Moment has in most ways worked out for you. I had a long play with it the other day and it can now do searches using full names of arttists and very neatly shows you whether the seach items are from your NAS or from Deezer. As well as interacting with i had a chance to reflect on its looks:

The tablet with its rounded corners doesn't look right in that square device.

The embedded tablet feels cheap whereas the rest of it is more expensive and nice to touch.

The tablet isn't as responsive as an iPad despite the recent software updates.

The tablet should have been coated in an antireflective coating - there's nothing more off-putting and diverting from the 'B&O Magic' than seeing my face.

The Moment functionality is near maturation yet from the sounds of it, the Beomusic App lags behind compared to the Moment.

Sadly, no 24/96 or 192 digital output from the Moment - this is beggars belief - how the ************ did they forget to leave that out - what were they thinking...! Yes, yes, I know it has WISA but i have read the WISA thread and it's far from bullet-proof. Even those that have eliminated any 5G from their home router etc, still have inexplicable problems streaming music from source to BL over WISA. I dont want to take that risk.

So i have to decide between a Moment whose functionality is lovely though in a cheap looking product that lacks a digital out versus a Besound Core that can stream digitally at 24/192 but has an App with limited functionality on an iPad run in Kiosk mode.

Buying a pair of BL90s, really does bring into sharp focus that B&O need to develop an audio source that is of equal calibre, ranks up there with the best in terms of looks and functionality and lacks little to nothing.

Let the analysis paralysis persist...

.

 

 

Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.

Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.

.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Sun, Sep 24 2017 8:35 PM

Yep, wireless streaming once you start using FLAC files can be very janky - at least in my flat in Hampstead, too many networks and interference around me. So very annoying, i ended up wiring everything and now its all golden. Imperfect UI's can be irritating of course, but to me music drop outs are just something else....

Might be worth having a look at the Auralic - others seem to like it, and the Youtube review i saw of it gave a good idea of the iPad app - if the option of waiting for the B&O app to be fully built out (my9-12 month estimate) is too patience testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px_AGBgRnP8

there's a view of the app towards the end of the video.

in the end my suspicion is that an iPad version of the B&O app will eventually be pretty good - the reworked iPhone app so far is a pretty good start, slow though the development has been.

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