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BEOVISION ECLIPSE

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VANTAGE
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VANTAGE replied on Thu, May 3 2018 10:44 AM

Let's hope B&O does not turn out like Nakamichi, a company which today is just the ghost of what it once was :-(

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Millemissen
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This may also work the other way ‘round.

You do know that LG earler on was Lucky-Goldstar....

....which used to be synonymous with el cheapo bargain basement goods.

Things are moving fast these days - where it goes, noone really knows.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

poodleboy
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poodleboy replied on Thu, May 3 2018 12:36 PM

VANTAGE:

Let's hope B&O does not turn out like Nakamichi, a company which today is just the ghost of what it once was :-(

Too late for that. It is a similar path. Their top product is a €1000 7.2 surround system from Amazon. Difference is it is highly regarded by the press. 

 

poodleboy
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poodleboy replied on Thu, May 3 2018 12:49 PM

Millemissen:

This may also work the other way ‘round.

You do know that LG earler on was Lucky-Goldstar....

....which used to be synonymous with el cheapo bargain basement goods.

Things are moving fast these days - where it goes, noone really knows.

MM

LG and Hyundai made BILLIONS on entry-level products for people of moderate means, distributed through big box network. They were not hated for bad products because they met the basic needs of their customers (a car, a microwave, a tv, etc). They used their technology and money to raise their stature in their space. B&O does not have anything in common with that. 

Good point about nobody knowing where it will end. The model of raping your customers and dealers with sketchy, overpriced products and globally shameful business practices so you can feed an ever smaller team of accountants, lawyers, marketers, and consultants is a novel business approach, indeed. 

mikewalsh
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Hi Roger - thanks as always for your insights. This is sad news. Does this mean that they won’t fit a 2018 LG panel to the Eclipse this year, as was originally planned? What will happen when the 2017 LG panels run out? I can’t imagine that they have a contract for manufacturing 2017 panels just for B&O - or will the Eclipse go with the way of the Moment, and be gradually sunsetted as components run out..

Beer_Baron
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Roger:
Last year the dealers were told that the new design approach with LG for the Eclipse made it easier to swap the panels as LG continued to develop the OLED technology, making it possible for B&O to present a BeoVision with fresh screen tech for the years to come. This approach seems to be dropped now. Instead, the current Eclipse and Horizon will continue to run as-is.

That seems... unlikely? Difficult to understand?

LG are no longer making last year's panels, at some point they will no longer be in stock, I don't think you can get them now for retail. Unless B&O bought a huge number of the old panels and are still working through them to build today's Eclipses (why would they do that? keeping stock costs money) then at some point they will run out of the old LG panels.

Which means either: Eclipse production ceases due to no panels; or continues with the new LG panel. Since the Eclipse was designed with the ability to incorporate new LG panels, I would have thought that was the logical way to go; but you say otherwise.

You seem to be saying they will continue to produce the Eclipse with the old panels until the panels dry up, and then no more Eclipse? Is that correct as you understand it?

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Beer_Baron
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mikewalsh - snap!

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Roger
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Roger replied on Thu, May 3 2018 2:05 PM

The information is conflicting - but what was communicated a year ago was done so by another team. The stock was supposed to last till the new panel was available - how can this stock stretch to the Fall of 2019? Sales can't be that slow?

Also, another issue the Eclipse solved was the challenge with replacing obsolete panels under warranty. The BeoVision 7 series ran with older panels for a long time, resulting in replacement panels being a challenge for warranty repair - the Eclipse approach presented a year ago was said to solve this, too. What is communicated now is conflicting, as well. 

Roger

Stan
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Stan replied on Thu, May 3 2018 3:33 PM

Emil Jensen:

I very much enjoy my motorized stand every day, with my ECLIPSE,

This would be missed.

Also that everything is in one.

I have not regretted my first Beovision (ECLIPSE) It is a joy every day, much more than all the other system that I have had.

You echo my thoughts (except for me, it's the motorized wall bracket - it's magic when the TV silently swings into place and appears to be floating). 

I asked my dealer questions about panel upgrades and future warranty repair before I purchased, and got the answer about newer panels fitting into the sound center.  To me, it seemed like wishful thinking to expect a panel ~5 years into the future to just slide into the sound center, nor could I imagine stocking enough old panels for this to be workable.  5 years is forever in the consumer electronics business.  I bought the TV anyway.

Maybe history repeats for me as I bought one of the last Saabs.  Not a good track record on my part - assuming B&O follows thru with their plan to drop TVs... then again, I still enjoy my Saab (just pray there's no fender-bender and especially no back end damage (tail light assemblies are next to impossible to find), and hope to do the same with my Eclipse (and no worries about the Eclipse getting rear-ended  Smile)... just hope these OLED panels hold up for many years.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, May 3 2018 3:42 PM

And it likely will....i never quite understood all the discussion about panel swapping anyway, these things do tend to last pretty long.

So i'd rest easy, your Eclipse will work fine for quite a few years - whether they continue to address software and integration issues is a separate question, but again i doubt they abandon it, at least for the next year or two.

poodleboy
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Roger:

The information is conflicting - but what was communicated a year ago was done so by another team. The stock was supposed to last till the new panel was available - how can this stock stretch to the Fall of 2019? Sales can't be that slow?

Also, another issue the Eclipse solved was the challenge with replacing obsolete panels under warranty. The BeoVision 7 series ran with older panels for a long time, resulting in replacement panels being a challenge for warranty repair - the Eclipse approach presented a year ago was said to solve this, too. What is communicated now is conflicting, as well. 

Roger

You have made a number of salient comments. Do they tell a story? I think so.

Lacking leverage, B&O have often committed to buying X number of 3rd party units to get favorable terms and conditions. When they no longer have the money or prestige to make big demands on suppliers, they have to compromise the product. B&O distribution network is responsible for gaining allocation to the units and the plan goes in place. If the product works and it value-priced as determined by the customer, then you can do multiple runs of that same order line, but it is always batch sales. 

If the sales forecasts are weak, the product doesn't work, or the price/value ratio doesn't resonate, then somebody (B&O) is stuck with a partial lot of in-process inventory for which it is accountable, or they cram it down the distributors' collective throats. Of course, since B&O doesn't really build anything anymore or have a dealer network, that inventory is taking up space somewhere else. It is "impossible" to economically refit components to work the new components. They were hoping for a new run of Y number of products to sell. Give or take 10%, this is how manufacturing works for everyone.

You can't escape the fundamentals unless you are truly unique, and even then it catches up with you, eventually. Now you are trying to hand-build a SEAT and call it a Bentley. And you are spending all your profits from BeoPlay to prop up that which made you famous. Again, the opposite of what LG and Hyundai (and every other auto manufacturer) have done. At least Tue knew the problem, but how to fix it was either over his head or not accepted by the powers of the day. 

Their arrogance and underperformance have come to a point there is nobody left to screw over but each other. When you don't know what to do, restructuring gives the core group an extra year to take care of themselves. And we know how that ends up, don't we?  

Beofan67
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Emil Jensen:

I very much enjoy my motorized stand every day, with my ECLIPSE,

This would be missed.

Also that everything is in one.

I have not regretted my first Beovision (ECLIPSE) It is a joy every day, much more than all the other system that I have had.

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Fully agree Emil

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Millemissen
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poodleboy:

 And we know how that ends up, don't we?  

Actually we don’t!

MM

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KMA
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KMA replied on Thu, May 3 2018 5:54 PM
To me, the Eclipse (its value proposition) seemed like a case where the product had a high profit margin % for B&O, per unit. So much so that it was over-priced.

Profit margin does not equal cash-flow. Eclipse was wishful thinking: B&O hoping that people will buy the high markup because of their brand.

Sales volume brings cash and profits. If the Eclipse was more reasonably priced (re: Loewe), it would have sold more.

An imaginary case: a product has 50% profit margin per sold unit. It looks like a money-maker on paper (i.e. a rip-off), but only sells a few. The cash-flow is not there. That's the problem with over-priced products. Compare that to a product with a margin of only 20%. With a reasonable (competitive) price, it sells 10000s. Cash flows in.

Margin does not pay the bills, cash does.

B&O is definitely no Louis Vuitton. B&O should swallow the pride of what the logo used to mean, back in the day, and markup their products for what they are: nice designs manufactured in China.

BeoPlay sells well because it is reasonably priced, for what the products are, and Play has a good selection of products. It's a viable choice for consumers who look at competing products.

The stand-alone SoundCenter – with the audio engine, great sound, and motorized stand – may save B&O as the entertainment hub that will be a starting point begging for extra BeoLabs. Most people who want better audio for their TVs buy a SOUNDBAR today. It's a thriving product segment. Many soundbars support additional speakers for true home cinema experience.

This "BYOTV" approach simply needs thoughtful design and a set of VESA adapters to fit a TV of your choice onto the SoundCenter. It will most likely look a lot like BeoVision 7 – not a bad design. After all, screens are thin-framed rectangles these days and pretty much look the same from the front. Some people will prefer LED LCD, some OLED – and this solution will let the customer choose and upgrade at will.

Priced reasonably (€3.000 - 3.500) and with the right marketing, it will sell better than the over-priced Eclipse. Best of all, it will sell to people who already have a perfectly good TV, be it LG, Sony or Samsung, and look for a soundbar for better audio. It will tie the new customers to B&O's audio & multiroom ecosystem, where even BeoPlay plays nice.

It's a winning concept.

KMA

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Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, May 3 2018 6:48 PM

Thats all fine, though the margins on TV's industry wide are much much lower than that.

Analysts impute the iPhone margin at close to 50%, and thats Apple with all its advantages (scale, manufacturing and design chops, outstanding supply chain management, halo product pricing power). In the TV industry margins have been much closer to single digits, and my B&O dealer has for years been told the the BV margins are on the thin side of that.

So, its no surprise that they continue to scale back their TV ambitions.

Loewe,for all their recent revival, may also succumb to to the same economics in a few years time, though hopefully not.

Otherwise, i agree that they should proceed in the way you suggest. 

I can live with losing a BV television - but i want a single physical remote that is worthy of B&O. I do fear that they wont happen, as they assume tablets and phones can do the job.

In the meantime, i will continue to pray on a daily basis that my 12-65 and Avant (MK1) see me through the next few years.

poodleboy
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@KMA, 

I believe you are spot-on.

Does B&O have the courage to create a statement product at 3 x the competition price or will it squeeze the last drop of brand equity it has and pull out some bits and bobs? Nakamichi went the downmarket path and won best product at CES2018 at €1000, selling at Amazon and WalMart. At €3000 can B&O sell enough soundbars in plastic and cloth in China and Europe to stay alive, or will they? That makes Loewe look enticing, doesn't it? Or do they go all-out and make a proper BeoLab 14 and risk profit to reclaim its niche?

 

 

Millemissen
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If I understood the first post from Roger right, the Eclipse will continue for a while (how long noone knows).

It would be updated each of the coming years with the newest LG panel/tv....for new costumers.

The Horizon could also last a while (how long?).

BUT —— yes, but - there will be no new complete BeoVision solution.

Therefore there will come two different soundbar’/‘sound center’ solutions, that may fit with possibly any current/future flat-tv.

Roger - feel free to correct me, if my understanding is wrong.

That is - if the plans, that were announced today, will not be changed again.

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, May 3 2018 7:00 PM

The Loewe TV's look enticing yes - though for all the attention they're getting here, they're nothing special or museum worthy design wise.

But yes they have threaded the needle quite well, for now at least. The GUI looks nice and elegant.

I will say one thing, re software problems that have afflicted B&O. They are not alone in this regard, as i and others have mentioned many times.

I was listening to the latest Verge podcast, and laughed when one of the guys mentioned that his Roku TV (they've been selling TV's the last couple of years), needed power cycling constantly because of software glitches (disappearing sound etc).. He described it as a piece of "hot garbage".

And thats from Roku, who should be good at software.

And also listening to AVforums podcast last week, where one fo the senior journalists had the same problem with the new Sony he was reviewing.

Deep breath everyone.

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, May 3 2018 7:08 PM

Millemissen:

If I understood the first post from Roger right, the Eclipse will continue for a while (how long noone knows).

It would be updated each of the coming years with the newest LG panel/tv....for new costumers.

My understanding of what Roger said is that what you say was promised but now the panel that is in the Eclipse is the only panel it will ever see - there won't be any future panel updates.

Ban boring signatures!

KMA
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KMA replied on Thu, May 3 2018 7:11 PM
@poodleboy

It'll be interesting to watch what happens.

The news brought on by Roger actually made me unusually hopeful for B&O – a brand I love, yet I have given up most of their products for now.

Perhaps B&O will be daring and sell the "SoundBarCenter" at €2.750 – with a motorized stand I'd consider it a bargain. I'm soon upgrading to LG C8 OLED (from my C7, which the Eclipse has) and would very much like to mount it on a B&O SoundBarCenter floor stand!

KMA

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KMA
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KMA replied on Thu, May 3 2018 7:31 PM
Sandyb:

Thats all fine, though the margins on TV's industry wide are much much lower than that.

Analysts impute the iPhone margin at close to 50%, and thats Apple with all its advantages (scale, manufacturing and design chops, outstanding supply chain management, halo product pricing power). In the TV industry margins have been much closer to single digits, and my B&O dealer has for years been told the the BV margins are on the thin side of that.

So, its no surprise that they continue to scale back their TV ambitions.

Loewe,for all their recent revival, may also succumb to to the same economics in a few years time, though hopefully not.

Otherwise, i agree that they should proceed in the way you suggest.

I can live with losing a BV television - but i want a single physical remote that is worthy of B&O. I do fear that they wont happen, as they assume tablets and phones can do the job.

In the meantime, i will continue to pray on a daily basis that my 12-65 and Avant (MK1) see me through the next few years.

I'd say you have your bases nicely covered: BV12-65 is probably one of the best plasmas out there, and Avant Mk1 is the last true BeoVision. Both well worth their price, in my opinion. May they serve you well & long.

The margins I posted were simply for argument's sake. I still do think, however, that high-end TVs have better margins than we think. LG C7 retailed at ~€3.000 when launched. Now it's €1.599 here. Margins of course depend on who you ask: manufacturer, wholesale distributor, or reseller.

Eclipse with LG C7 was a rip-off (in my opinion). Since launch, it hasn't even got the same firmware updates as LG C7. The updates have, among other things, improved motion handling and PQ. I've had no software issues or shortcomings, contrary to what Eclipse owners have reported here – and they share the same TV.

KMA

B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.

Sandyb
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Sandyb replied on Thu, May 3 2018 7:54 PM

Yes, indeed, i'll pass on your best wishes to my two BV's!

With respect to sound bars / centres, while they could definitely succeed, the issue as ever will be ensuring seamless integration with B&O speakers (the easy bit), and other sources (the harder bit). Lets hope they are up to the software challenge.

It does leave the open question of a Beoremote - is one needed for a Sound centre?

Yes, if it controls other sources in the same way as now. 

but i'm not sure which was they'll go on this - after all, look at the Eclipse, the Beoreomote offers very compromised control of the LG GUI, and certainly no voice.

So i have no idea whether they'll make a sound-bar with the same scope as others (sources connected to TV), OR if its a Beosystem 5 + Sound Centre package (sources connected to the B&O package).

 

Anyway, I'm glad i dont feel the need for an HDR TV yet - as what i want doesn't exist, in the same way that my 12-65 did at purchase.

I'd love Sony's tone mapping and motion processing (but not Android, nor the underpowered chipsets in Sonys TVs), Loewe's GUI, and B&O sound.

 

 

 

Emil Jensen
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KMA:
@poodleboy

 

 

It'll be interesting to watch what happens.

 

 

The news brought on by Roger actually made me unusually hopeful for B&O – a brand I love, yet I have given up most of their products for now.

 

 

Perhaps B&O will be daring and sell the "SoundBarCenter" at €2.750 – with a motorized stand I'd consider it a bargain. I'm soon upgrading to LG C8 OLED (from my C7, which the Eclipse has) and would very much like to mount it on a B&O SoundBarCenter floor stand!

 

That is a bit optimistic, for that price you can get the motorized stand, and the Alu fret, no SoundCenter Laughing Thing are expensive, and as one there have had LG and now have a Eclipse I do not doubt where the money have gone, I do not feel ripped off in any means.

As another pointed out, just the remote is worth a lot, it is just a perfekt tool for your av. Works far better then any universal remote I have ever tried, and defiantly way better then the LG magic remote.

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Mr 10Percent
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Just pulled the trigger on a 65.

Delivery in a week!

 

10

Duels
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Duels replied on Thu, May 3 2018 9:42 PM
Mr 10Percent:

Just pulled the trigger on a 65.

Delivery in a week!

10

How exciting! Please post a pic when it’s installed.
Stan
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Stan replied on Fri, May 4 2018 12:39 AM

A challenge with the €3000 soundbar is that the "general public" thinks an $800 sound bar is expensive.  Once again, B&O will still be 5x expensive than Sonos (for example)... and there's definitely no motorized stand at that price point either.

Honestly, I was hoping for an elegant, motorized soundbar, but needed a new TV so I went with the Eclipse.  I'm very happy with it.

AnalogPlanet
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Perhaps B&O really decides to make motorized soundbar/stand and soundbar/wallmount with possibility to attach 3rd party TV... ...I can imagine people being interested outside of this B&O enthusiast forum. You get great sound, wonderful mobility of your TV, elegant look, premium build etc... and (!) it could allow B&O to shine where they are most competent: quality of sound complemented with beautiful design. Fingers crossed.

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You couldn't have put it in better words KMA. I had an Eclipse, luckily got rid of it and now I have the Avant MKI on the way yet once again. Eclipse is a sell out of the B&O's soul. No curtains, awful menus, SW issues beyond belief, let alone the HW issues with DSSE board replacement on basically all the early models. I have one of the luckiest V1-32's in the world (as it would think to itself) connected to the BeoLab 90's. It works more reliably than the Eclipse.

When I first got the Eclipse, it would not connect to the Atlona Matrix out of the box. I had to request special SW via S/N on my TV. Got it all working just to find out that the PUC tool B&O Released after I don't even know how many years of begging DOES not work on this TV. Reason why I'm "chafed" about that is particularly that all PUC files are essentially catered to the Beo4 of all species, not BR1. GUIDE & INFO buttons have no function in some cases (that were editable via this application) and I'm not even going to go to the "My Buttons" as that is another frustrating issue to altogether.

Being around this product for over 23 years, I'm in tears...

AngloApulian
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This all very interesting.

So rumours on this forum now of B&O eventually getting out of the actual TV business and focusing on the sound/audio side of the business and I recently just read over on the official Loewe forums of rumours that Loewe are looking to get out of the sound side of their business to focus just on TVs. I’m starting to think that maybe these two (B&O & Loewe) should merge.

What does everyone else think?
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Could you post a shortcut to the Loewe forums please. I’ve been looking for ages.

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AngloApulian
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Chris Townsend:

Could you post a shortcut to the Loewe forums please. I’ve been looking for ages. Beolit 15, Beoplay A2, H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

Apologies, I should’ve included the link in my post.

You’ll need to read through the thread - it’s mentioned by one of the forum moderators and unless you understand German, you’ll need to use Google Translate: https://www.loewe-friends.de/viewtopic.php?t=9058
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BeoGreg replied on Fri, May 4 2018 4:11 PM
Roger “news” are a nightmare for me.

A sound bar is all I hate in tv’s even if it had a 450 watts power.

B&O without an all in one solution is not B&O.

Those ”news” are to make us rush to the store because an Eclipse is extraordinary compared to a samsung/sony/LG tv + sound bar + remotes + wires + Ikea furniture.

What a shame when I think that my not so old BV11 is made in Denmark with premium materials.

Sound bars, seriously ?
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That sounds good but won’t happen. B&O carries a grudge agains Loewe and b&o refuses to work with Loewe. Loewe is willing and as far as i understand it has hinted at that exact offer, but got slapped down.

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Chris Townsend
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BeoGreg:

Roger “news” are a nightmare for me.

A sound bar is all I hate in tv’s even if it had a 450 watts power.

B&O without an all in one solution is not B&O.

Those ”news” are to make us rush to the store because an Eclipse is extraordinary compared to a samsung/sony/LG tv + sound bar + remotes + wires + Ikea furniture.

What a shame when I think that my not so old BV11 is made in Denmark with premium materials.

Sound bars, seriously ?

The closest thing I could get to a Beovision, with its customised rock solid software, built in AV receiver, great centre speaker ..........curtains! Loewe

Ps room long way from finished

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BeoGreg
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BeoGreg replied on Fri, May 4 2018 5:40 PM
Yeah Chris, a Bild tv is on my list when the BV dies. You can even get motorised floor stand (Bild 7).
Millemissen
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BeoGreg:

Sound bars, seriously ?

Firstly we don’t know anything but these few hints from Roger - and he probably also does not know more.

(and also there are probably not made any decisions yet).

However, I am pretty sure that B&O won’t make a soundbar like the hundrets of soundbars on the market.

If it has to make sense, it will be different.

A lot of people have called the Sound Center of the Eclipse a soundbar, although it is in many ways different than the lot.

Geoff Martin even wrote an article about the Sound Center with the title ‘it’s not just a soundbar’.

If we may expect something in that category, I guess we could live with it....if it must be.

MM

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Jeff
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Jeff replied on Fri, May 4 2018 7:59 PM

Mikipedia:
That sounds good but won’t happen. B&O carries a grudge agains Loewe and b&o refuses to work with Loewe. Loewe is willing and as far as i understand it has hinted at that exact offer, but got slapped down.

Still pissed off about WWII?

That's too bad though, there's an obvious synergy between the two companies. But I suspect B&O still thinks they can own the whole pie, regardless of the facts.

Jeff

I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus. Sad

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LOL!

. o O ( Sorry, that's the only contribution I can make these days! Little else to talk about... )

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Fidse replied on Fri, May 4 2018 8:52 PM
Is it so far out to imagine a seperate sold soundcentre, with a hdmi connection as in the Eclipse, where you can plug it into any of LG’s OLED tv’s and have the same control of the panel, as with the Eclipse? It would more or less be the same as now, only with a longer hdmi cable.

That would in my mind make sense, as to the collaboration between B&O an LG. That way, you would get your intire B&O setup, BeoRemoteOne included, and could pick you tv between LG’s OLED models. They’ve also released a wifi-dongle so you can connect WISA speakers to any of LG’s OLED models, so perhaps this will be the future of the B&O/LG collaboration?
gbs_32
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gbs_32 replied on Fri, May 4 2018 9:16 PM

Exactly. A B&O sound centre/sound bar plugged into an LG OLED Wallpaper TV. Now that would be the bomb!

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