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Beolab flickering lights and "thump"

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Piaf
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Piaf posted on Tue, Jan 10 2017 3:02 AM

When my newest addition to my B&O family arrived [Beolab 5000], I noticed that the two lamps flickered with the music when the volume was at 4-5 and I asked Soren about this.

Soren said I should post this as a question of the forum as he didn't know why this was happening, as it didn't happen when he tested the Beolab.

Soren felt "something was drawing too much power," so what do you guys think?

Also when the power button is depressed there is a rather loud THUMP in the speakers. It seems to me that I read on another thread that the Beomaster 4400 also did this, but it was of no concern.

Frankly, I was kind of pleased that my own 4400 didn't exhibit this particular trait.

Anyway, I am most interested in the flickering lights to see if it means anything needs attention. I really don't want to do anything that might damage this wonderful amp.

Jeff

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Piaf
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Answered (Verified) Piaf replied on Wed, Jan 11 2017 7:37 PM
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Hi Soren,

All help and advice is appreciated and useful. This is Canada, boringly dependable and that would most definitely include electric service.

I like "dimmed" lights so I have dimmer virtually all over the house: bathrooms, hallways, living room, media room..... you get the idea. And dimmers are SUPER sensitive to drops in voltage, if set low enough, they stay off until turned back on again, so I am very certain that voltage (either low or inconsistent) is not the problem.

I played the Beolab all day yesterday and today as well. It is playing right now as I type. It plays BEAUTIFULLY which is a tribute to your dedicated workmanship. Ditto the Beomaster 5000, which is a total delight.

If, as you said, you played the Beolab at 8 and the lamps didn't flicker, then clearly something happened in transit. Right now anything above 4 causes the red ON lamp as well as the green STEREO lamp to flicker.

At 5 the flicker becomes more pronounced. At 6 the lamps actually go out completely (briefly). As you said you took the Beolab to 8 to tired but at 6.5 it actually hurt my ears and you know that I LOVE LOUD music.Honest Soren, I don't know how you could have listened to this Beolab at 8.

As the Beolab has replaced my ailing Beomaster 4400, it is now a part of my daily extensive exercise program, so I get a lot of up close time where I can watch the Beolab and see all the flickering.

In truth..... and you know me, I will be honest, I find the flickering annoying, it grabs attention where it shouldn't, BUT it is not something I can't live with. Live comes with compromise and I really LIKE this Beolab! Smile

Jeff

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Piaf
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Answered (Verified) Piaf replied on Wed, Jan 18 2017 5:39 PM
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I am now in the process of gathering information from the cognoscenti here on BeoWorld and have a pretty fair idea of source of the power supply issue with my new Beolab.

While sorting through this the thought that occurs is the flickering lamps which are the result of a voltage drop can reasonably be used as a temporary over-load protector, that is to say, if the lights are steady there should be sufficient voltage for the amplifier itself to avoid any problem while maintaining sound quality.

The only remaining question is, is it to be expected (acceptable) for the left side of the Beolab to get actually quite hot? I have been keeping close check on the heatsinks which seldom get more than warm. I touched the left side yesterday by accident and was relatively surprised by how hot it was. Of course hot is a broad term, but more than body temperature, but not too hot to touch.

If the left side being rather toasty is of no concern I would like to spend a good bit of time letting this Beolab settle-in...... and enjoy the music while it is doing it.

If the left side temperature IS a problem, I sure hope someone will let me know.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

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Søren Mexico
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The same thump I have in my BM 4400, its a little annoying but I understand that it is quiet normal, what I do is, turning down the volume before turning on the BL. The volume of the thump is the same on the BM 4400 as on the BL (same speakers connected)

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Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 6:55 AM

Søren Mexico:
The same thump I have in my BM 4400

Hi Soren,

I sort of figured that was the case. Yea, it is annoying, but over all, who cares? If it is not a problem how much trouble is it to turn the volume down before turning on the Beolab?

Again, thanks for the help with the Beomaster 5000 Tuner. Much appreciated!

Jeff

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Geoff Martin
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Hi,

At a conceptual level, the answer to your flickering light problem is kind of the same as the reason you get hotter water in the shower when someone else in the house flushes a toilet. Basically, the problem is that, if you're going to share, you're going to have to make a sacrifice. Your lights and your loudspeaker's amplifier are supplied with current (or electrons) in parallel - they share electricity from the same source. If the "pipe" that is supplying them is not big enough (in other words, if the wire has too high a resistance) then, when the amplifier demands a lot of current, it will rob it from the lights. The louder your music, the more current the amplifier needs, and the more it steals from the lights.

The more physical explanation of this involves a discussion of the resistance of the mains wire that runs from your circuit breaker to the point where the wire splits between feeding the lights and feeding the amplifier. If you have 110 V RMS at the circuit breaker and you have a resistance in the wire that is more than 0 ohms, then the more current you pull through it, the the lower the voltage level at the point where the wire splits. (For example,  if the resistance of that wire is 2 Ohm, and your amplifier+lights are "pulling" 3 amps, then you will get 104 V RMS at the input to the lights and the amplifier because 110 - 2 x 3 = 104.)  The higher the demand for current by the amplifier, the lower the voltage supplying the lights - and therefore they will get dim. If the current demand varies over time (for example, with the music signal) then the lights will flicker in sync as a result.

The good news is that, until you blow a fuse or trip a circuit breaker, this is not a problem for your lights.

Interestingly, this also means that the voltage supply to the amplifier also varies. However, if this causes the audio signal to degrade, then this means that the power supply of your amplifier has not been properly designed. (Anecdotally, I once heard a story that indicates that this issue is probably one of the historical and weird, but REAL reasons that people have an allergy to jitter in digital signals - but that story belongs in a different forum thread...)

If you want to eliminate the problem, the cheapest solution is to supply the amplifier and the lights from two different circuits (e.g. two different fuses or circuit breakers). The expensive solution is to re-wire your house with bigger wires - which I would not recommend... Of course, another solution, albeit impractical, is to listen to music in the dark.

It may also be interesting to note that this effect might be more noticeable with LED's than with old-fashioned incandescent lights (depending on the circuitry feeding the LED). This is because LED's can react much more quickly than a hot piece of tungsten can change temperature. So, it might be that incandescent lights would be dimmer, but constantly dimmer whereas an LED will flicker - but this is really dependent on many things - so it might not be the case. However, it does mean that, if you are noticing the problem with an LED bulb, then changing the bulb to a different model or brand MIGHT solve the problem, since it MIGHT have a different power supply design with different time constants.

Cheers
-geoff

 

 

 

hemenex
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Geoff, I think Jeff is talking about the lamps in the Beomaster, not in the room.

But your explanation is true anyway but related to the internal power supply.

My BM900 is doing the same, the lamps get flickering darker with increasing volume even though it has an internal power stabilisation.

A lot of vintage stuff has fluctuation on the internal power supply on heavy output volumes.

But who am I to tell you that Wink

  hx

Geoff Martin
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Embarrassed Well I feel stupid... Now that I read it again, of course that's what Jeff means... 

I guess that means that my suggestion of listening in the dark will only make things worse...  Normally, I listen with my eyes closed, so I don't notice flickering lights.

Sorry for the spam, everyone...

Cheers
-geoff
Jeff
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Jeff replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 1:33 PM

I've had devices where a turn on thump or pop was due to either a grounding issue (in one case a bad solder joint) and at times a capacitor in the power supply going bad. I had a Proton clock radio that developed substantial "Pop" on turn on that fixed itself after I moved it to the work bench, something inside was not making good contact and getting bumped around seemed to fix the issue.

Do the speakers pop on turn on if the signal cables are not attached to them?

Jeff

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Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 3:20 PM

Geoff Martin:
Embarrassed Well I feel stupid... Now that I read it again, of course that's what Jeff means... 

Hi Geoff,

I'll admit that you REALLY had me going. I read every word with enormous interest..... and growing concern. However I can, indeed, confirm that I meant the lamps on the Beolab rather than the lights in the room.

This is a fairly new restoration and as such, there is always teething pains.

I had an issue with the Beomaster 5000 in that there was considerable binding in the center of the tuner dial and a scraping noise. This "problem" was sufficient that the tuning knob was useless, forcing the use of a hand to move the frequency selector. No big deal just a little filing on the 2 screws and the rivet on the back side of the selector and problem solved. Everything should be so easy! Smile

So why are the lamps ON the Beolab flickering with the music? Is it an "issue" and if so what needs to be done about it?

The Beolab sounds too good for me to have serious concerns, however I was genuinely surprised to see such a pronounced flickering at the 4 or 5 level.

If EVER to do anything with electronics that causes my house light to dim, I will have a far more serious problem than a questionable stereo. Thanks Geoff, that was a good laugh to start the day! (I laughed, anyway.) Stick out tongue

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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 5:45 PM

Guys,

This Beolab 5000 is a BIG deal to me, so kindly forgive the over abundance of caution on my part.

I have the house to myself for the first time since the BL/BM arrived. Soren said he played this Beolab at "8" with no flickering of the lamps. Honestly, I don't know how he did that as I topped-out at "6" and that is as loud as I could enjoy the music, also of Soren's suggestion: Bette Midler's "Its all about the Girls" album.

I figure that basically if the sound quality is OK then one is not pressing an amp beyond its limits, BUT the Beolab has no overload protection like the Beomaster4400, or at least I haven seen anything about such protection.

What I am saying in my clumsy manner is yes, I want to test my new acquisition by put it through its paces, BUT I don't want to break it in doing so.

At "6" the sound quality is very good, very good indeed, and the amp is not running especially hot. However the power lamp and Stereo lamp really flicker with the bass notes.

It occurs to me that the flickering lamps might well be part of the break-in process, but I don't know this, it is only a guess.

I look forward to your input on this flickering. In the mean time I am going to run the Beolab for half a day at different volume levels, while keeping note of the heatsinks.

Jeff

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chartz
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chartz replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 8:51 PM
Hi Jeff,

The loud thump is quite normal, but I don't have any light flickering at all. Methinks the problem resides somewhere within the regulated PSU circuit. I'll have to look at the diagram to figure it out.

The thump is quite louder than the one the 4400 produces by the way, but then again, it is fine. My ReVox A78 does that as well. I simply wouldn't use it with my QUAD ESL. There is no noise on switch-off.

Jacques

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Jan 10 2017 9:48 PM

Hi Jacques,

I know I can always count on you..... thank you.

I tried the "trick" that worked on the Beomaster 4400, that is turn the volume to zero and you avoid the THUMP. As you undoubtedly already know, this "trick" doesn't work on the Beolab. However I am very glad to learn that it is normal. (I thought it might be.)

As promised, (by you) the sound is very, very good. I am still not ready to say it is the "best" sound quality, but I am getting close to being able to say that. And it is not that the Beolab plays a new recording like the Bette Midler album well, which it does. But I also hear notes I never heard before from my much enjoyed AKAI 8-Track Recorder, which I find more remarkable than playing a LP well.

Also, unless I am mistaken (This is difficult to prove) I believe the Beolab produces a LOT more volume than the Beomaster 4400, or at least my crippled version thereof. 

As you must have learned by now, I enjoy loud music (I think it is a character flaw). I routinely listened to the 4400 just at the edge of the overload lamp flashing. However with the Beolab I tried higher volumes as Soren said he played this Beolab at 8, but I have not attempted that...... becuase it hurts. 6 on phono is about as loud as I can appreciate, 5.5 on tape.

Back to the lamps, they really do flicker above 4, especially with bass notes. I don't think this is a "real" problem, but I wish they didn't do this. Embarrassed

Jeff

Anyway, I believe the Beolab is still "sorting out" as all restorations do and I am growing used to it..... and so far, I AM impressed.

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Søren Mexico
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I dont know if this can have any influence on the BL and the flickering. Jeff did you ever check your power supply house line, I have here between 130 and 135 Volts coming in. and have no flickering on other devises like BM 4000, 4400. 1000, 901

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Answered (Verified) Piaf replied on Wed, Jan 11 2017 7:37 PM
Verified by Piaf

Hi Soren,

All help and advice is appreciated and useful. This is Canada, boringly dependable and that would most definitely include electric service.

I like "dimmed" lights so I have dimmer virtually all over the house: bathrooms, hallways, living room, media room..... you get the idea. And dimmers are SUPER sensitive to drops in voltage, if set low enough, they stay off until turned back on again, so I am very certain that voltage (either low or inconsistent) is not the problem.

I played the Beolab all day yesterday and today as well. It is playing right now as I type. It plays BEAUTIFULLY which is a tribute to your dedicated workmanship. Ditto the Beomaster 5000, which is a total delight.

If, as you said, you played the Beolab at 8 and the lamps didn't flicker, then clearly something happened in transit. Right now anything above 4 causes the red ON lamp as well as the green STEREO lamp to flicker.

At 5 the flicker becomes more pronounced. At 6 the lamps actually go out completely (briefly). As you said you took the Beolab to 8 to tired but at 6.5 it actually hurt my ears and you know that I LOVE LOUD music.Honest Soren, I don't know how you could have listened to this Beolab at 8.

As the Beolab has replaced my ailing Beomaster 4400, it is now a part of my daily extensive exercise program, so I get a lot of up close time where I can watch the Beolab and see all the flickering.

In truth..... and you know me, I will be honest, I find the flickering annoying, it grabs attention where it shouldn't, BUT it is not something I can't live with. Live comes with compromise and I really LIKE this Beolab! Smile

Jeff

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chartz
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chartz replied on Thu, Jan 12 2017 4:44 PM

The way I see it, the PSU regulator must be faulty. If the lamps get dim, the PSU rail drops too. I'm afraid the Beolab will have to be opened and some measurements will be necesssary to make a clear diagnostic. Is the amp completely silent, hiss aside, when there is no music and you put up the volume cursor ? Try this on phono please.

 

Jacques

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Piaf replied on Thu, Jan 12 2017 6:26 PM

Hi Jacques,

Your question calls for a slightly subjective answer, but none the less, below 6 the amp is absolutely silent on phono. Above that level there is a slight HISS. At the 10 level the HISS is apparent, but not loud.

I am not technically oriented (as you know) like you, so all I have to compare is the Beomaster 4400 which had a distinctive HUM for months before it died. Not the same sound in any way.

Does that answer your question?

Please know there is no one qualified on Vancouver Island to work on vintage electronics. I am more than ready to try to make repairs myself with some real HAND-HOLDING, but if testing exceeds what one might expect from a rank amateur, then it will need to be sent off for repair.

Having nothing to do with your question, but the USPS lost my Beomaster 1600 for over a week in Menlo Park, California. The Beomaster 1000 was delivered, but with the box torn open. The 1600 just arrived about 20 minutes ago..... so I am not very enthusiastic about shipping the Beolab internationally. But I will if I must.

In any case, THANK YOU for the information.

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