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Paul W
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Paul W replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 4:57 PM

I agree with you Sal, it's a really cool discussion. Being honest, I'm sure that Tue is doing everything he can to secure Apple Music for the Moment. After all, Tue has done more to integrate B&O with Apple products than any other CEO at B&O. Bearing in mind that the Moment is based on the Android platform, who knows? Maybe the B&O approach will be to have the new Apple TV4 due in the Autumn connected to the 55" Avant upwards or a Play product streaming it from an iPhone/iPad/MacBook etc.

Exciting times as always in the world of musica!

Millemissen
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@Sal

One of the things, that a Moment can do is to make your music and that of Deezer available on the NL/BeoLink network as multiple streams.

Deezer is by now the only streaming service, that allows multiple steams from one account.

You won't be able to do that with Apple Music. You can have more (family)members on one account, but you can't distribute different musc to multiple end points with Apple Music/AirPlay.

However, if you don't want or need that, Apple Music will be just as fine as any of the other streaming services.

Your wife is in for Apple Music......you have some serious decisions to make Big Smile

MM

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linder
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linder replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 6:35 PM

Sal:

Will the Beosound Moment -- or more aptly -- how quickly will the beosound Moment have Apple Music available for subscribers through a software update?

The answer is "never".  Apple wants absolute control over it's premium product.  There are many obvious reasons but the main one is access to the iTunes store, iCloud, and the update process.  B&O can do this on Moment if it is indeed a standard implementation of Android.  Apple will not allow the API to be used by anyone else.  When Apple states that Music will be available on Android, they mean an app.  B&O will have to load an app without any modification.

 

 

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Stan replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 6:35 PM

linder:

It really doesn't require a crystal ball.  Apple has a lot of money and has hired a lot of really smart people.  You can expect they will innovate their own products or look at trends and then make it their innovation.  

Seems like I heard exactly the same thing said by many smart people about Microsoft when they were hiring all the world's top talent (late 90s?)...  I didn't quite work out that way for MS, and some day, it's not going to work out for Apple.  When does Apple start their decline?  Some think it's already started, but only time will tell.  I think they've got at least a few more years on top.

Stan

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Raeuber replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 6:54 PM
Stan:

Seems like I heard exactly the same thing said by many smart people about Microsoft when they were hiring all the world's top talent (late 90s?)... I didn't quite work out that way for MS, and some day, it's not going to work out for Apple. When does Apple start their decline? Some think it's already started, but only time will tell. I think they've got at least a few more years on top.

Stan

Apple will stay on top if they don't make a real big fault, like exploding IPhones or like Apple Music without a search funktion for artists and albums!Big Smile
Sal
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Sal replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 7:01 PM

linder:
When Apple states that Music will be available on Android, they mean an app.  B&O will have to load an app without any modification.

Yeah, BeoMegaMan mentioned the API thing earlier in the thread, but it didn't "click" for me. Duh!

Paul W
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Paul W replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 8:37 PM

Definitely Apple have a few more years in them yet. This year has been great. The new MacBook Retina is terrific engineering. Final Cut Pro X is just incredible as a video editing tool and the iPhone 6 is to many, the best iPhone to date :)

linder
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linder replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 8:47 PM

Paul W:

Definitely Apple have a few more years in them yet. This year has been great. The new MacBook Retina is terrific engineering. Final Cut Pro X is just incredible as a video editing tool and the iPhone 6 is to many, the best iPhone to date :)

This thread is a really great discussion.  I usually don't make a lot of comments but I would like to point to a few facts.  I think B&O will find its way though the myriad of music and TV standards.  They have a lot of really well designed products but most of us who have been buying B&O products over the years know B&O is usually about 2 years behind the industry leaders.  Times have changed and change will happen even at a faster rate.  B&O has a lot of really smart people too.  We will see what happens.

Neither Apple or Microsoft are on their way down.  In the Forbes 500 of net worth companies, Apple is number 1

http://www.forbes.com/companies/apple/

Microsoft is number 2

http://www.forbes.com/companies/microsoft/

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Duels replied on Wed, Jun 10 2015 8:52 PM
linder:

This thread is a really great discussion. I usually don't make a lot of comments but I would like to point to a few facts. I think B&O will find its way though the myriad of music and TV standards. They have a lot of really well designed products but most of us who have been buying B&O products over the years know B&O is usually about 2 years behind the industry leaders. Times have changed and change will happen even at a faster rate. B&O has a lot of really smart people too. We will see what happens.

Neither Apple or Microsoft are on their way down. In the Forbes 500 of net worth companies, Apple is number 1

http://www.forbes.com/companies/apple/

Microsoft is number 2

http://www.forbes.com/companies/microsoft/

I couldn't agree more. It staggers me when people look at the world's most profitable and valuable company and point out what they think they are doing wrong.
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fredpert replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 4:26 AM

Hi,

Even if Apple Music is planned to be added to the new Apple TV later this year, do you think B&O will propose direct access to Apple Music from their Beovision range like they do with Spotify or Deezer? That would be awesome.

FREDPERT

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elephant
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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 6:03 AM
BeoGreg:

I think I will switch from Spotify to Apple Music, especially when the new Apple TV will be available later this year, surely with a great implementation of Apple Music.

Regards

Räuber

Should be available even on ATV gen 3 however I would be delighted if there were a 30 June hardware announcement - however I can see it happening. But I could see an icon / channel refresh on the existing ATV

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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 6:04 AM
Millemissen:

Apple Music seems great, but you are stock with AirPlay (which is not everyones delight) and only one stream

Family membership for 6 IDs probably gives you multiple streams

BeoNut since '75

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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 8:07 AM
Ben_S:

With spotify, deezer, tidal and apple music (as well as others) do you really believe each of them has enough to survive and compete? Surely in the next year or so one will emerge as the definitive choice?

Ben

No.

Yes.

Spotify has raised an enormous $526 million in funding to fight off Apple's new Apple Music subscription service. As part of the funding round, European carrier TeliaSonera is responsible for $115 million. The music service now has 20 million paying subscribers and 75 million monthly active users, doubling the subscriber base since May of 2014. The LA Times reports: "U.S. companies participating in the Spotify funding include Halcyon Asset Management, GSV Capital, D.E. Shaw & Co., Technology Crossover Ventures, Northzone and P. Schoenfeld Asset Management, said the person familiar with the matter, who was not authorized to comment publicly. British investment firms Baillie Gifford, Lansdowne Partners and Rinkelberg Capital, along with Canadian hedge funds Senvest Capital and Discovery Capital Management also took part. In a statement disclosing its investment, TeliaSonera said it would work with Spotify to come up with innovations in media distribution, customer insights, data analytics and advertising."

BeoNut since '75

elephant
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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 8:21 AM
Paul W:

It's also very interesting for B&O with a SONOS equivalent as Apple Music has made the SONOS system rather redundant due to the fact that it can't use it! Don't forget up to 6 multiple account are available on Apple Music for 5dollars more a month.

You may recall I am at WWDC - and I have met two SONOS software engineers who are attending ... and no B&O folk (so far, 2 more days to go)

BeoNut since '75

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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 8:32 AM
Millemissen:

Deezer is by now the only streaming service, that allows multiple steams from one account.

You won't be able to do that with Apple Music. You can have more (family)members on one account, but you can't distribute different musc to multiple end points with Apple Music/AirPlay.

Are you sure ?

I have one account and I can play three streams in three rooms without activating ML to get to other rooms.

How?

BeoPort on the Mac and two ATVs.

I know you will say that means extra hardware and BVs switched on.

And I agree - but there is no account restriction.

Perhaps because it's a family account.

And perhaps because a single iTunes account was always able to be associated with up to five computers (I am even including WINTEL copies of iTunes).

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elephant
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elephant replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 8:42 AM
linder:

The answer is "never". Apple wants absolute control over it's premium product. There are many obvious reasons but the main one is access to the iTunes store, iCloud, and the update process. B&O can do this on Moment if it is indeed a standard implementation of Android. Apple will not allow the API to be used by anyone else. When Apple states that Music will be available on Android, they mean an app. B&O will have to load an app without any modification.

As you are a registered Apple developer you have access to the recordings of this week's sessions.

I did not attend the session, but perhaps you could view Media Session 502 on Tuesday morning and comment on it ...

BeoNut since '75

Millemissen
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elephant:
Millemissen:

Apple Music seems great, but you are stock with AirPlay (which is not everyones delight) and only one stream

Family membership for 6 IDs probably gives you multiple streams

No - it gives you 6 seperate streams manageable from 6 devices.

That is a different pair of shoes.

MM

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Chris
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Chris replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 9:39 AM

Apple's marketing dollars and a trial period of three months, must be made Apple's music a success. The long trial period (Spotify and Tidal is at most 30 days) must demonstrate that Apple learns your musical tastes and you will eventually get intelligent suggestions. It will make the course harder, after three long months of enjoyment finally to say goodbye.

The app itself is soon on any iPhone in the world, the popularity of the music service will undoubtedly propel. But then you have to give users a reason to continue to pay for that music. What? The Beatles are not on the Apple Music!

Spotify and co. seem not immediately doomed. An excellent service built on top of an ecosystem that is already being used by millions of people, may be enough to keep them. To use Apple's music for every musical experience, to the extent that we even won't watch music videos anymore on YouTube - the ultimate ambition of Apple - it really has to be damn good.

"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."

Millemissen
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elephant:
Millemissen:

Deezer is by now the only streaming service, that allows multiple steams from one account.

You won't be able to do that with Apple Music. You can have more (family)members on one account, but you can't distribute different musc to multiple end points with Apple Music/AirPlay.

Are you sure ?

I have one account and I can play three streams in three rooms without activating ML to get to other rooms.

How?

BeoPort on the Mac and two ATVs.

I know you will say that means extra hardware and BVs switched on.

And I agree - but there is no account restriction.

Perhaps because it's a family account.

And perhaps because a single iTunes account was always able to be associated with up to five computers (I am even including WINTEL copies of iTunes).

It is common knowledge (at least amongst those interested) that you can stream/AirPlay to multiple endpoints from iTunes on a PC/Mac.

However, you don't expect to see iTunes on the Moment, do you!

And ---- Apple Music is not the same as iTunes. Just ask around on the conference to find out the differences ;-)

MM

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Ben_S replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 9:56 AM

Chris

I think you are generally spot on with your comments here. One thing though, I think the overall success of these services will also include how they treat the artists themselves. Spotify has failed miserably on this front in terms of making the music sustainable for artists. They get almost no income at all from it and it is hard to see many of the big artists continuing on a platform where they make no money. Some have already left for this reason (Taylor Swift for instance).

I think what will be interesting is how Apple responds to this issue. How will they ensure that artists are properly paid for the music if that is even possible? I think unless someone works out this very difficult conundrum I cannot see services like spotify growing in terms of a financial prospect. If anyone can turn this around though Apple can and unlike spotify they have the capital to invest in the project.

Ben

Paul W
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Paul W replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 12:13 PM

Hi Elephant. Many people were asking SONOS about Apple Music on their Facebook and Instagram. Their reply is "Apple Music won't be available on SONOS at launch but we'll be happy to work with them whenever they are ready to bring it to SONOS"

Millemissen
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Who would have expected a different answer?

MM

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Paul W
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Paul W replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 1:31 PM

True MM :) But it must be stressful times for all of these companies as they know that their sales are going to be heavily effected either positively or highly negatively. Maybe the October Apple event will shine some light on it :)

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Andrew replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 2:38 PM

I should think that those that pay for Deezer premium are likely to continue to pay because of the higher sound quality and almost the same catalogue - amongst younger people it maybe different. Biggest difference though surely is that Deezer also offer a free service, albeit with adverts? Apple doesn't and costs the same as the premium service from Deezer.

Much as I love everything Apple, I'd also rather pay for better sound quality. Whilst apple can roll it out for free (almost) and give 3 months free trial, it will be interesting at the end of the trial how many people switch.

I suspect Higher Quality will come from Apple and that;s when things will really hot up.

Hopefully apple will not completely dominate as competition is good.

Paul W
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Paul W replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 3:06 PM

I'm not sure if higher than 256AAC will ever come from Apple Andrew. The rumours have been going on for 5 years now. Remember a 256AAC is of a slightly better quality than a 320MP3. Apple would only shift it demand was huge enough and it doesn't seem that it is. Apple are very much the portable on the move type so they'll be concerned about data allowance/useage etc.

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Andrew replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 4:00 PM

True, for mobile use and on the go much better at 256 - be interesting to see if there is much difference though once in a position to judge it. If it is minimal then, for me anyway, its down to content, features and ease of access.

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Andrew replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 4:00 PM

True, for mobile use and on the go much better at 256 - be interesting to see if there is much difference though once in a position to judge it. If it is minimal then, for me anyway, its down to content, features and ease of access.

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Paul W replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 6:50 PM

I think it depends on the system and recordings Andrew. I remember playing 128AAC files in my MINI Cooper's Harman Kardon system and they sounded FANTASTIC!!! Again, we've used 128AAC files at the radio stations were i've worked. Certainly AAC seems to be a lot more forgiving than the old MP3 format of the 1990s.

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butch1 replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 11:44 PM

I am still astonished why someone with systems worthy ££££s feed their speakers with compressed rubbish and turn their TV on to control it.Itunes is fine for listening to iPhone with headphones at gym etc, but if you really appreciate music you would not entertain it on a proper system at home.

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vikinger replied on Thu, Jun 11 2015 11:55 PM

Thrre was a time when a shellac 78rpm disc was the pinnacle in HiFi. People can make themselves believe anything when it comes to justifying their expenditure on sound systems. The difference now is that even MP3 gives a quality beyond which even the most critical ear has difficulty in distiguishing as inferior to FLAC. We have reached a point where cheap downloads, streaming or web radio can give you superb quality that was unachievable 10 or more years ago. In a strange sort of way this should be the very time that B&O excels with its active speakers, and also with delivery systems that are really nice to use.

Graham

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Jeff replied on Fri, Jun 12 2015 2:26 AM

vikinger:

Thrre was a time when a shellac 78rpm disc was the pinnacle in HiFi. People can make themselves believe anything when it comes to justifying their expenditure on sound systems. The difference now is that even MP3 gives a quality beyond which even the most critical ear has difficulty in distiguishing as inferior to FLAC. We have reached a point where cheap downloads, streaming or web radio can give you superb quality that was unachievable 10 or more years ago. In a strange sort of way this should be the very time that B&O excels with its active speakers, and also with delivery systems that are really nice to use.

Graham

+1

AAC is a particularly good algorithm, and I've yet to find any golden eared audiophile who can tell the difference between 256kbs VBR AAC and wav. Might be someone out there who can, but I've not seen it. At least not in a properly controlled test, and that includes giving someone a disc with the AAC and wav file followed by randomly chosen A or B files.

Hard to convince someone to buy their music all over again though if you admit that though.

Jeff

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Sal
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Sal replied on Fri, Jun 12 2015 2:37 AM

This might be appropriate.

My score was 3/6, and even then I wasn't sure most of the time.

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Sal:

This might be appropriate.

My score was 3/6, and even then I wasn't sure most of the time.

If you want to know more about the flaws of the NPR test, read this and the following articles from Mark Waldrep:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4681

If you really want to test these things, you'll need proper testing!

MM

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Paul W
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Paul W replied on Fri, Jun 12 2015 1:27 PM

Sal that is a great test. Only tried the Katy Perry one so far and too the WAV sounded horrible - really compressed and the one that sounded the best was the 128 followed by the 320! Just goes to show I guess!

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Sal replied on Fri, Jun 12 2015 3:42 PM

Millemissen:

If you want to know more about the flaws of the NPR test, read this and the following articles from Mark Waldrep:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4681

If you really want to test these things, you'll need proper testing!

Flaw or not, there must be something to it. My wife got a 5/6 and 6/6 the two times she took the test. (She's a trained musician (vocalist) and has perfect pitch, not that it helps with hearing sensitivity, but she's definitely got something I don't -- other than my money Big Smile)

As an aside, for once the comments to an article on the internet didn't make me want to throw my computer out the window. Even if one thinks the test is rubbish, the comments were entertaining and insightful (at least to me). And many of the commenters also thought the test was flawed. :-)

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Jeff replied on Fri, Jun 12 2015 7:12 PM

Millemissen:

Plenty of cues in that listening test other than sound quality, and still most people don't get it right. Designing a proper test is not as easy as you think.

Jeff

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Carolpa replied on Sat, Jun 13 2015 7:46 AM

Jeff:

Millemissen:

Plenty of cues in that listening test other than sound quality, and still most people don't get it right. Designing a proper test is not as easy as you think.

this test can only reveal that people cannot differentate between formats. there are to many uncertainties when doing it

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Paul W replied on Sat, Jun 13 2015 1:11 PM

Truly explains why Apple stuck with 256AAC. I'm sure that perfectionist Steve Jobs did a lot of testing himself with this! Apple could of gone to 320AAC if they'd felt that there was any noticeable difference I guess! Whilst some people may regard Apple products as expensive, they have never been dishonest to their customers through marketing!

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Paul W replied on Sun, Jun 28 2015 9:00 PM

Apple Music coming to SONOS...

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/28/apple-music-sonos/

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