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The new BeoLab 12-2 revealed

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moxxey
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moxxey replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 4:59 PM

I saw the BL12-2s at my dealers this afternoon. They were much bigger than I expected. They aren't a great deal smaller than the 12-3's and are the same width.

However, I prefer them. They are a better size. Neater. I can see that these would be ace combined with a silver BL1. I can seriously see these becoming my next purchase. At £2500, not bad value. I need to see how they compare to BL3s though. They weren't set up at my dealer and he had to open the brand new box to show me (the BL12-2s).

Steph
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Steph replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 5:21 PM

Yes Moxxey,

interested to compare the sound to BL3.

I really like the design of the 12 series, very original, both in silver or white.

As i said before, i hope B&O unveils a floor stand soon (or a table stand for the 12-2) ! Yes - thumbs up

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 5:38 PM

Steph:

I really like the design of the 12 series, very original, both in silver or white.

Not sure about the white. It's not a subtle white, it's a shiny white. I think this will look a bit "80s" unless they are in a very bright white room.

Steph:

As i said before, i hope B&O unveils a floor stand soon (or a table stand for the 12-2) ! Yes - thumbs up

My dealer has now changed his mind on this and says no floor stand is coming any time soon. When I asked him this afternoon why he mentioned a floor stand the other week, he said he was speculating himself (that the BL12s need a floor stand option) and that there isn't one coming out officially :(

So, wall mount only at least for the short-medium term, it seems.

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tournedos replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 5:51 PM

moxxey:
Not sure about the white. It's not a subtle white, it's a shiny white. I think this will look a bit "80s" unless they are in a very bright white room.

Bright (vs. matte) colours are coming back - or already did, if you look at what's available at IKEA Big Smile

moxxey:
My dealer has now changed his mind on this and says no floor stand is coming any time soon.

Just as I said in the other thread Whistle Not feasible technically. It's not going to be the same speaker.

--mika

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My bet is that they look like a £2500 speaker but they don't sound like one!  Would be pleasantly surprised if they are as good as Beolab 3's!

PhilLondon
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I heard the long ones, and they sounded great. The shorter one will and less bass of course.

I haven't compare with the Beolab 3.

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moxxey
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moxxey replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 6:17 PM

KingOfSnake:

My bet is that they look like a £2500 speaker but they don't sound like one!  Would be pleasantly surprised if they are as good as Beolab 3's!

Ian, when I heard the BL12-3s, I thought they were very decent. Similar to BL3s, perhaps with a little more bass. I don't know how the BL12-2s will compare, but there's no reason why they shouldn't be as effective. The frequency range is wider, they have ALTs, bigger bass driver. Less wattage, but there's no reason why they shouldn't be as good.

Only thing that surprised me about the BL12-2s is that they aren't as small as I expected - still quite heavy, too.

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My 12-3 labs are a good sound now I have both plugged in, not sure about the bass as I'm still working on the walls before I secure the speakers to the wall.

Time will tell and if not I will buy a lab 11.

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KingOfSnake
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Mr Moxxey, clicked on the B&O website and with the scant details posted, together with the spelling frequency with an additional 'e' before the 'y', how can you determine that the frequency range is wider?  Would be very surprised if they are as good.  Appreciate your view, but when I heard 12-3's they were decidedly average, maybe it was just the installation in the Dealership - will listen more!

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Tue, Jun 12 2012 11:10 PM

KingOfSnake:

Mr Moxxey, clicked on the B&O website and with the scant details posted, together with the spelling frequency with an additional 'e' before the 'y', how can you determine that the frequency range is wider?  

BL3s: 50-23,000 Hz

BL12s: 45.3 - 23,900 Hz

Cabinet volume is higher on the BL12s, too. Add a BL11 and the frequency range will be even greater, but I can't see it adding too much to the BL12s, based on the above values.

BTW, from the B&O website "FREQUENCEY DRIVERLE". Oops. In fact, they spell frequency incorrectly in numerous places. Surely rule 1 is to get the English right in the first place. I'm not talking grammar, basic spelling.

KingOfSnake
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Hi Chris, the figures - from my reading of the new website anyway - refer to the 12-3's and therefore, as the frequency range is a function of cabinet volume and tech specs, can we expect the smaller 12-2's to have reported figures narrower than this?  Possibly worse than the bl3's?  I guess the real proof is in the listening!

@Mr K, IMHO a BL11 would be a waste of money my friend for 8hz!!!  Might be worth a test session, think I might have a used one in stock, certainly have BL2.

BTW take a look at the new SONOS Sub @ 25Hz and £599 - off subject I know but wireless and am interested to hear what it sounds like just for curiosity value.............

 

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 7:32 AM

KingOfSnake:

Hi Chris, the figures - from my reading of the new website anyway - refer to the 12-3's

No, those figures are across both speakers - if they differ for the 12-2, they'd be i the 12-2 column. Anything that across both speakers, is only in the first column (applies to both).

I doubt the extra bass driver affects the frequency range and the cabinet volume isn't too much smaller (and is bigger than the BL3s), so no reason to doubt their claims. However you look at it, it's quite a chunk wider than the BL3s.

KingOfSnake
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Web page looks a bit unfinished and scrappy for my liking, speling mishtakes are totally unacceptable.  We'll see, would be very surprised if figures apply to both speakers but I have been wrong once before. :)

For example, how have they reduced the physical size but maintained cabinet volume?  This is revolutionary surely?!?!

Geoff Martin
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KingOfSnake:
For example, how have they reduced the physical size but maintained cabinet volume?  This is revolutionary surely?!?!

Not that revolutionary. The speakers have different total masses, so their respective gravity fields result in different warping of their local space-time continua...

Or, according to Ockham, the explanation might be simpler.

Assuming you're talking about the bass cabinet volume: the individual woofers are in their own sealed enclosures. Therefore the volume is per woofer.

cheers

-geoff

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 2:19 PM

Geoff Martin:

Assuming you're talking about the bass cabinet volume: the individual woofers are in their own sealed enclosures. Therefore the volume is per woofer.

Cheers Geoff, thanks for the explanation. Can you nudge someone internally about the website spelling mistakes please!

Geoff Martin
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moxxey:
Cheers Geoff, thanks for the explanation. Can you nudge someone internally about the website spelling mistakes please!

Already done.

cheers

-g

Barry Santini
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Geoff:

Sorry to jump in and detour this thread, but can you point us to a contact/email point to get specific answers to technical questions on what specifically type of audio formats and exactly how they're handled on the BS5/BM5? I can't seem to get the type of specific answer i desire locally here in the states?

Thanks.

Barry
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Hi Geoff please clarify my understanding that with half the bass drivers and less of a cabinet volume that the frequency range cannot be the same between the 12-2 and the 12-3.  This is exactly the same reasoning as the difference in specs between the 7-1, 7-2 and 7-6 and the pronounced difference in frequency response across the range when the drivers are the same!  The 12-2 has less cabinet volume and 50% less bass drivers so how can Tge frequency response apply across two models?!?!

@Moxxey, I ain't done yet with this one!!

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tournedos replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 9:36 AM

The following is written under my understanding that the drivers in -2 and -3 are the same, and each have an individual enclosure of the same size:

You can't add up frequency responses. Whether you have 1 or 2 (or 10) arrangements as above, the frequency response remains exactly the same - the two bass speakers will just play 3 dB louder than the single one. If we want to keep the frequency response of the entire speaker level, this needs to be compensated for in the crossover. Simplified, the end result is a speaker that has exactly the same frequency response, but can play louder...

Of course anyone is free to use the added bass headroom by cranking up the bass setting at the amp, effectively extending the bass response - but it's not natural sound anymore.

--mika

Geoff Martin
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KingOfSnake:

Hi Geoff please clarify my understanding that with half the bass drivers and less of a cabinet volume that the frequency range cannot be the same between the 12-2 and the 12-3.  This is exactly the same reasoning as the difference in specs between the 7-1, 7-2 and 7-6 and the pronounced difference in frequency response across the range when the drivers are the same!  The 12-2 has less cabinet volume and 50% less bass drivers so how can Tge frequency response apply across two models?!?!

@Moxxey, I ain't done yet with this one!!

Hi,

I'll over-explain the basics - just to make sure that we're all on the same page...

 

Generally, a frequency range (sometimes called "bandwidth") measurement of any product (B&O or another brand, a loudspeaker or something else) is performed by

 

  1. doing a magnitude response measurement (sometimes somewhat-imprecisely called a "frequency response" measurement) of the device
  2. finding a magnitude (or level) in the mid-band. This can be (a) the peak magnitude, (b) the magnitude at a pre-determined frequency (1 kHz is a popular, arbitrary choice), (c) an average calculated from the magnitudes over a number of frequencies, or (d) something else. This will be called the "reference"
  3. deciding on how-much-below-that-reference-magnitude you are going to call your "cutoff" (-3 dB is a popular choice since this represents half the power of the reference magnitude, -10 dB is also a popular choice with loudspeakers based on a perceptual rule-of-thumb that equates a 10 dB gain as being "twice-as-loud")  This will be called the "threshold" for the purposes of this discussion.
  4. Find the frequencies below and above your mid-band where the magnitude response graph crosses below the threshold.

 

So, if you take a look at the technical spec's for a B&O loudspeaker, you'll see that we get the reference level by doing an average of the magnitude response from 200 Hz - 2 kHz, and the threshold (as defined above) is 10 dB below that average.

So far so good.

So, there's at least one thing left to discuss: How loud was the signal playing when we did the measurement? This is a VERY important question.

Consider, for example, an extreme (maybe even silly) case. I can take a single 1" tweeter and pre-filter its signal so that it has an on-axis magnitude response that is laser-flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. All I need to do is to boost the low frequencies A LOT before I send them to the power amp. However, there is a restriction here - I can't turn up the level to be very loud, otherwise the tweeter will either (a) distort, (b) break or (c - the most exciting, but improbable option) burst into flames (or at least release all of its magic smoke). However, if I do the tweeter's measurement VERY QUIETLY, I will get a frequency range measurement of 20 Hz - 20 kHz.

In other words, if you have control of the internal filtering of a loudspeaker, any loudspeaker can have any frequency range if you measure quietly enough. However, if you do the measurement at a louder listening level, then you get a different result.

AH HAH! I hear you think... So you're CHEATING! And the answer to this is: NO we're not.

The frequency range of all BeoLab loudspeakers are measured at the same level - so they are directly comparable with each other. In addition, this level is not artificially lowered (so that we make the frequency range results look better) - it's done at a typical listening level (sorry - I don't have the exact number in SPL, weighting, distance-of-the-microphone-to-speaker-when-doing-the-measurement, acoustic conditions, etc. etc...).

So this means that, at a typical listening level, you get the frequency range stated, however, this does not mean that you will have the same frequency range at all listening levels. That would be impossible - you can't get the same maximum sound pressure at 20 Hz level from a BeoSound 8 and a BeoLab 5 (that can be seen in the "Bass Capability" spec's of the various loudspeakers on the website. Remember that ABL is a two-faced solution. It means that we can boost the bass in a small speaker, but we have to pull back on the bass as you turn up the volume (the explanation of ABL on the BeoSound 8 page describes this pretty well, I think).

 

Specific to your question: Since they are physically different, the tunings of the BeoLab 12-3 and BeoLab 12-2 must also be different to make them sound the same. For example, since the 12-3 has two woofers and the 12-2 has one, we boost the signal sent to the 12-2's woofer more to make it sound the same as if there were two woofers as in the 12-3. However, one woofer can't play as loudly as two, so the ABL will also have to behave differently to protect the loudspeakers. The result is, at a typical, lower listening level, you get (roughly) the same frequency range, but the bigger speaker can play low frequencies louder than the smaller speaker (you can also see this by comparing their Bass Capability data.

 

Another example is a case where you have a system (i.e. a BeoPlay V1) that has an auto-loudness function. At one volume level, you get a given frequency response. However, at lower volume levels, you are applying a bass and treble boost (on the V1, the amounts of these boosts are user-tunable in the menus). So, you are "artificially" extending the frequency range at lower listening levels.

 

An analogy is to compare cars by looking at horsepower. I can say that Car "A" has a maximum of 100 HP, and Car "B" has a maximum of 200 HP, therefore I should buy Car "B" if horsepower is my only criterion for choosing. However, if Car "A" gives me 100 HP at all engine speeds (in RPM) and Car "B" gives me 50 HP at all engine speeds except at precisely 6500 RPM where it suddenly jumps to 200 HP, then perhaps looking only that one number isn't the smartest way to choose my car. In fact, you can't use that one maximum HP rating to  make any decisions about how the cars behave - it's simply not enough information to be useful when you're driving to work.

 

I hope that this clarifies the confusion (without raising additional suspicions). If something I've said there doesn't make sense, please let me know and I'll give it another shot.

 

Cheers
-geoff

 

BTW: To be fair, there are more things left to discuss. For example, (1) What was the signal used to make the measurement? (2) What was the crest factor of the signal used to make the measurement? (3) How hot was the speaker when you started the measurement? (4) How hot was the speaker when you finished the measurement? (5) What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? (6) Why is a mouse when it spins? (7) What is the height of Mount Everest? (7a) Do you consider this to be sufficient? 

 

I'll stop now...

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 11:40 AM

Excellent explanation - my only concern (for you) is that you have now laid yourself wide open to a myriad of other questions!Laughing

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Geoff Martin
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bsantini:
Geoff:

Sorry to jump in and detour this thread, but can you point us to a contact/email point to get specific answers to technical questions on what specifically type of audio formats and exactly how they're handled on the BS5/BM5? I can't seem to get the type of specific answer i desire locally here in the states?

Hi Barry,

This issue has come up in another thread - I'm working on it. More info to come - but I can't promise when. Sorry.

Cheers

-geoff

Barry Santini
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geoffmartin:

Hi Barry,

This issue has come up in another thread - I'm working on it. More info to come - but I can't promise when. Sorry.

Cheers

-geoff

No problem Geoff. Glad you're interested in getting the information. All of us here are very patient.

Thanks for your efforts and dialogue here on Beoworld!
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tournedos:

You can't add up frequency responses. Whether you have 1 or 2 (or 10) arrangements as above, the frequency response remains exactly the same - the two bass speakers will just play 3 dB louder than the single one. If we want to keep the frequency response of the entire speaker level, this needs to be compensated for in the crossover. Simplified, the end result is a speaker that has exactly the same frequency response, but can play louder...

This is basically true - except for a couple of minor details. But to be picky...

If the distance between you and the loudspeaker is less than the critical distance of the room...

 

  • the distance between the drivers and their individual diameters have a say in the way they add up at the listening position. If they're infinitely small, and the distance between them is less than, say a quarter-wavelength (or so...) of the highest frequency you're worried about, then they'll add together with a boost of around 6 dB (or so...) per doubling of drivers. (the closer they are to each other, the closer the sum gets to 6.02 dB)
  • if the distance between the drivers is a little bigger (say, on the order of half a wavelength of the highest frequency or more) then there might be a bit of a mess, depending on the details like what frequency, what the distance is, what angle of incidence to the listening position, whether the listening position is inside or outside the critical distance of the room, and probably lots more stuff.

 

If the distance between you and the loudspeaker is greater than the critical distance of the room...

 

  • ... and if the distance between the drivers is REALLY big (i.e. you live in an aircraft hangar and you have one driver at each end of the room) then they'll add together with gain of 3 dB per doubling of the number of drivers

 

If the diameter of the drivers or the size of the thing on which they're mounted is on the order of the wavelength of the frequency in question, then the points above may or may not be true, due to other issues like directivity and diffraction, for example.

 

However, it will certainly be louder... at some frequencies... in some listening positions... 

cheers

-geoff

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Seanie_230 replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 12:08 AM

Hi ll, after a few agonising weeks I have decided that the lab 12-3 is just not good enough for my music room. Has anyone ever returned an item? 

On Saturday my friends said can you turn the music up and I said embarrassingly no they will not go any higher, I think I will get some KEF XQ40's and run them from the 9300.

So but I cannot justify these speakers cost we they don't deliver.

Crying

BLGW - Rekindling the love of ML

Seanie_230
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Seanie_230 replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 12:08 AM

Hi ll, after a few agonising weeks I have decided that the lab 12-3 is just not good enough for my music room. Has anyone ever returned an item? 

On Saturday my friends said can you turn the music up and I said embarrassingly no they will not go any higher, I think I will get some KEF XQ40's and run them from the 9300.

So but I cannot justify these speakers cost we they don't deliver.

Crying

BLGW - Rekindling the love of ML

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Steph replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 9:17 AM

Ho, It is very awkward !

Is it because the light of the speaker becomes orange, or because you're at the max. volume of the BeoCenter ?

Maybe these speakers are really dedicated to TV front and surround sound and not for classic hifi use.

It's very strange, indeed... Huh?

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Hi there

i think maybe its because they cannot play loud music, when any form of bass appears (moderm dance music) they do not like the bass.
I am quite sad by it as they are lovely to look at but yes they should be a TV speaker not for Hifi.

the beocenter is not at Max.

I will call the shop in a little while to see what my options are.
i am thinking of running some Kef speakers from the amp onm the beocenter as they can be Biwired and should produce some good sound.

Dissapointed.

BLGW - Rekindling the love of ML

Steph
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Steph replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 2:48 PM

And what about the addition of a BeoLab 11 or maybe a BeoLab 2 ?

It could be a good option to add bass to the BL12...

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Hi Steph.

I did think about that but the lab2 is to slow for music and the question is "should i have to buy a sub to compliment the speakers"
I am really sad that i need to take them back, so who has some ideas for what i can put in their place

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Paul W replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 3:33 PM

Seanie that's one heck of a lot of money to spend on a loudspeaker that won't play music loud - damn! It would really make me scared to buy into B&O speaker systems if that's what they are like? I'm really not keen on the design of the BL12 anyway - I saw them the other week and the design wasn't for me.

The BL3 looks like a proper speaker - would that not suit you better?

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Paul W replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 3:33 PM

Seanie that's one heck of a lot of money to spend on a loudspeaker that won't play music loud - damn! It would really make me scared to buy into B&O speaker systems if that's what they are like? I'm really not keen on the design of the BL12 anyway - I saw them the other week and the design wasn't for me.

The BL3 looks like a proper speaker - would that not suit you better?

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Paul W replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 3:34 PM

Steph, the poor guy's spent nearly on £3000 on a pair of loudspeakers, he shouldn't have to pay another £2000 just to get a decent sound!

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Steph replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 3:43 PM

You have the BL6000 and BL8000 with the wall bracket... Wink

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Paul W:

Seanie that's one heck of a lot of money to spend on a loudspeaker that won't play music loud - damn! It would really make me scared to buy into B&O speaker systems if that's what they are like? I'm really not keen on the design of the BL12 anyway - I saw them the other week and the design wasn't for me.

The BL3 looks like a proper speaker - would that not suit you better?

 

Hi there

not sure about the lab3 im sure they are the same sort of power as the lab 12.

And yes they are effectivly lab 6000's on the wall.

BLGW - Rekindling the love of ML

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Paul W replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 4:07 PM

Seanie, I still think you should give the BL3's a try! Moxxey has them and he is incredibly impressed with the sound from them. Having seen them many times, they look like capable tough little speakers!

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Paul W:

Steph, the poor guy's spent nearly on £3000 on a pair of loudspeakers, he shouldn't have to pay another £2000 just to get a decent sound!

 

thanks for the support, the lab 3 frequency range is now as good as the 12's, i dont think anything will compare to my lab 9's and there is no way i can have a set of those in every room :)

 

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Paul W replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 4:30 PM

Seanie to heck with frequency responses and all the jargon, LET YOUR EARS do the deciding! It's the human side that counts, not what a graph says!

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BeoHut replied on Mon, Jun 25 2012 4:35 PM
This is very diappointing Seanie_230!

I have played my music, including tracks with some decent basses, rather loud, without distortion.

My master is a Beosound4, connected to a BV10. Mostly I play modern jazz and popmusic. Classic for the night.

I use the soundsetting to flat ( bass, treblle,loudness).

Probably not as loud as you play music.

Try it with your BC9300 with flat soundsettings. When you will play music with the 9300 and passive speakers, like the Kef's, then probably you will get the limitation of the amplifier in your 9300. Therefore you need a very high-end amplifier which is powerful.

Before bying new (passive) speakers, try first the settings on the amplifier. Even try it with a demo Beolab 11 or even a BL2.

In the past I have some speakers returned, because I did not like the sound at all. These were paasive ones. No problem with my dealer.

For the price of your new BL12-3 speakers, you can expect that they can play good, without distortion. Ask your dealer for the demo subwoofers. Its just a try and it will cost nothing.

Good luck!

Beofan53

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