Sign in   |  Join   |  Help

mmc1 vs mmc2 any sonic difference?

rated by 0 users
Not Answered This post has 0 verified answers | 35 Replies | 3 Followers

RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD posted on Fri, Aug 8 2014 11:00 AM

I know the mmc1 was the top cartridge for B&O but did it sound any different than a mmc2?   The specs make the mmc2 and mmc1 to be the same.  What is the difference?

All Replies

Dave Farr
Top 50 Contributor
France
2,281 Posts
OFFLINE
Gold Member

Interesting comparison, many thanks.  How do Soundsmith open the cartridge then?  The surgery scars are evident in the other two and my previous understanding from other posts was that this cutting was the only way to access the cartridges.

Having said that, the Soundsmith cantilever is so far off true, I'm amazed it's OK.  If I worked on that, I could not in all honesty return it to the owner looking like that.  The cantilever should be in-line and not look like that.  The diamond will be all over the place in the grooves of the vinyl and surely has the potential to damage the record over time as it will be biased to one side of the groove.  On another post regarding re-tips, one was returned to Axel as it was not in-line (not to that degree either) and he replaced it.

Enjoy your vinyl.

Dave.

RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 9:07 AM

Thanks for the photos! 

Looks like Benny is the ticket then.   Less money, faster and they all sound similar right?

 

 

Rich
Top 50 Contributor
Orlando, Florida, USA
2,598 Posts
OFFLINE
Bronze Member
Rich replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 1:18 PM

Thanks for posting all the great photographs.


RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 2:19 PM

Yes I have to agree with Dave,  for what they charge that crooked mmc1 looks a bit shoddy.  

Leslie
Top 25 Contributor
the Netherlands City
5,423 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
Leslie replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 4:46 PM

I would have send them both back immediately. My god, that's what they call quality? Especially the one from Germany.

Brengen & Ophalen

sonavor
Top 25 Contributor
Texas, United States
3,635 Posts
OFFLINE
Gold Member

In evaluating my small sampling of results I don't think I can declare one repair shop a winner over the other. For one thing, none of my repairs involved re-tipping which is a major repair. So in the context of just cartridge repair issues, all three repair shops produced good results.

With regard to cantilever leaning, I talked to the SoundSmith owner, Peter Ledermann via a phone call about the results of my cartridge repair. I also sent him the same picture I posted here. Peter described that he adjusts the cantilever/stylus mechanism so that it is perfectly balanced on the cartridge and that a little leaning of the cartridge is a typical occurrence. It would be a concern if it was way off but just a few degrees is not a problem. When the stylus sets down on a record, the cantilever straightens out. Repair work on phono cartridges is beyond my capabilities and he has 40 years of experience with cartridge building/repair so I am inclined to believe what he says. One of my cartridges from Axel also has some lean to it.

My reason for sharing the results of my MMC repairs is just to report that I have had success with each of the well known cartridge repair shops and what the results can look like. The repair of a phono cartridge is obviously very delicate work and I am glad these repair shops exist. I would like to see some details of other kinds of B&O cartridge repairs people have had done. For example, in repairing an MMC6000 cartridge stylus, is the only option to replace it with a contact line or Shibata tip? No one reproduces the original Pramanik tip, right?

-sonavor

RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 7:43 PM

What were the symptoms of the carts before you sent them in?

I have a mmc2 that the suspension is floppy, it plays but the needle is pushed up where the gaurd is almost scraping on the record.   Have a mmc4 like that too.  

I think I'll try Benny as he has the best price and is the fastest.   I'll report back here with results.

Does the new MMC1 now sound better than the others?   I was wondering how much a new suspension adds to the sound if anything.    I would say my mmc3 has a little more mid range pop than the mmc2.  But the mmc2 is a little smoother on highs, like a little better on the letter S sounds.

sonavor
Top 25 Contributor
Texas, United States
3,635 Posts
OFFLINE
Gold Member

RAJOD:

What were the symptoms of the carts before you sent them in?

I have a mmc2 that the suspension is floppy, it plays but the needle is pushed up where the gaurd is almost scraping on the record.   Have a mmc4 like that too.  

I think I'll try Benny as he has the best price and is the fastest.   I'll report back here with results.

Does the new MMC1 now sound better than the others?   I was wondering how much a new suspension adds to the sound if anything.    I would say my mmc3 has a little more mid range pop than the mmc2.  But the mmc2 is a little smoother on highs, like a little better on the letter S sounds.

On the MMC2 that I sent Benny, it had a weak channel. On the MMC2 that I sent Axel, it had a channel that was completely out. I have a second cartridge from Axel where the base had come off. On the MMC1 that I sent to SoundSmith, I never tried that cartridge at because I received in a state where the cantilever was way off to the side. It might have broken if I tried to use it.

Today I switched back and forth between the MMC2 from Axel and the MMC1 from SoundSmith in my Beogram 8002. I haven't been able to tell a difference. That is the same results I have had before in testing between my other MMC2 cartridges and my other MMC1 cartridges.

I also have an MMC2 cartridge that has the weak suspension like yours...where the plastic guard comes in close contact with the vinyl. I have taken that cartridge out of service and will send it off for repair (eventually). I wouldn't have any problem sending it to Benny. If I send any more cartridges to Axel I think I might try to save up and send two or more. If I had three or four to send it would be worth the cost to send them via registered mail (with insurance). One problem I have had with first class airmail and USPS is I can't get insurance without using registered mail (which is much higher). Sending these cartridges without insurance always puts a scare into me. I would consider sending another repair to SoundSmith but I would have to weigh the amount of time it takes (about 3 months) and the cost versus the complexity of the job. I have no doubt they must do a good job with their re-tipping service. When I sent my cartridge to Benny I was able to communicate by phone and email with him about the repair. I liked that. Axel also communicates well through email although he takes a little longer to reply as he is quite busy. SoundSmith is really busy and the most difficult to get through to by email or phone. However, I was able to get through to Peter on the phone today so it is possible.

RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD replied on Fri, Sep 12 2014 10:10 PM

Well I can see a winner.

Cost - 1. Benny, 2. Axel  3. SS

Speed 1. Benny, 2. Axel, 3. SS

Quality - Tie so far.   

So far it looks like Benny is ahead in the race.

Rich
Top 50 Contributor
Orlando, Florida, USA
2,598 Posts
OFFLINE
Bronze Member
Rich replied on Sat, Sep 13 2014 2:22 AM

sonavor:

If I had three or four to send it would be worth the cost to send them via registered mail (with insurance).

Clearly you have too many cartridges and must sell me one, preferably an MMC2.

sonavor:

When I sent my cartridge to Benny I was able to communicate by phone and email with him about the repair. I liked that. Axel also communicates well through email although he takes a little longer to reply as he is quite busy. SoundSmith is really busy and the most difficult to get through to by email or phone. However, I was able to get through to Peter on the phone today so it is possible.

For what it's worth, I wanted to share my experiences in the spirit of "full disclosure."

My experience with Soundsmith is twofold.  I purchased a new SMMC20EN for my BG4002 (purchased from Jeff ["Burantek"]) from Soundsmith.  It didn't actually fit the 4002.  I had to keep it "unplugged" about 1 mm for it to work.  I emailed the Soundsmith general info address and within 24 hours Peter himself had called me and we were talking about the issue.  I sent the cartridge back and he modified it for no charge and returned it within about a week.  I have been enjoying it ever since (about 3 years now).

Jeff had given me an MMC3000 with the BG4002.  While there was nothing wrong with it per se, I sent it to Soundsmith for a retip, almost as an experiment.  I used there cheapest retip option (I couldn't even tell you what it was to be honest).  Within a month I had the 3000 back and I absolutely love this cartridge.  I often describe it as "mellow."  It's just so neutral as to never draw any attention to itself.  It's my favorite cartridge, although perversely it is mounted in my least used system.

My experience with Benny Amina is limited with retips.  I believe I have already noted it in the thread already, but let me recap.  My kids when they were younger destroyed my only (at the time) MMC4 cartridge and I was starting to collect vinyl again.  I heard about Benny from Jeff and sent him the damaged MMC4.  Within a few days Benny called and said he couldn't fix the one I'd sent in, but he had a rebuilt MMC4 in stock that he could sell me.  I took him up on his offer and I've been enjoying that cartridge for going on 4 years now.

My experience with Benny with other repairs is less limited.  He's fixed/rebuilt for me:  BG4002, BC2400, BC4500, BC8004, BM1900, BM4000, CD X, and Nakamichi BX125.  His prices are fair and his turn times are less than a month.  Usually it goes something like this.  I email Benny the issue, e.g., "May I send you my CD X?  One channel's output is much less than the other."  He responds within 24 hours by email to go ahead and send the unit in.  I send him a bench fee check for $50 along with the unit.  He'll call about a week later and give me an estimate.  At that point we make a go, no-go decision on whether I want to bother with the repair.  (Sometimes I just say don't bother, go ahead and keep the unit for parts.)  Two weeks later or so I have the repaired unit back.  He applies the check to the cost of repair and charges my credit card the balance.

I have no experience with Axel.  Some day.


sonavor
Top 25 Contributor
Texas, United States
3,635 Posts
OFFLINE
Gold Member

Thanks for the additional information Rich. I think it helps confirm that we have some good options to keep our Beograms supplied with the necessary cartridges for our vinyl addiction. All three repair shops we have been discussing have good track records and I hope they remain in business for a long time.

About my number of cartridges, I am paranoid and of the belief that I can't have enough cartridges. However, I will let you know if I decide to sell any.

-sonavor

Cooker
Top 500 Contributor
116 Posts
OFFLINE
Bronze Member
Cooker replied on Sat, Sep 13 2014 12:26 PM

Thanks Sonvar for a very detailed post!!!!

After doing heaps of research, a few weeks ago I ended up buying a new SMMC3 from Soundsmith. I received it at my front door in under 2 weeks from placing the order and I live overseas!!!!

The SMMC3 represents excellent value for money as its the top of the range cartridge in the MMC range that retains the aluminium suspension and very low 1.2g tracking force. Also majority of thrift shop 2nd hand vinyl will sound better on an SMMC3 as it won't pick up as many imperfections/pops like an MMC2 or MMC1 will.

For an immaculate record recording, pressed on new virgin vinyl or a well cared for 2nd hand top sonic recording/pressing record, combined with an awesome amp and speakers, yes definatly go the MMC2 or the Sound Smiths The Voice cartridge if you have the cash. This is when you will notice the difference over an >MMC3. For normal everyday listening on a variety of quality and pressings of vinyl, the SMMC3 is alot better then most people give it credit for and is the best allrounder I think.

In my opinion, if your serious about vinyl, have 2 cartridges at least. An SMMC3 for everyday and an SMMC2/The Voice for those special records and to blow visitors/freinds minds on how good a decent pressing/recording sounds through decent speakers and amp.

That's my 2 cents.

Rich
Top 50 Contributor
Orlando, Florida, USA
2,598 Posts
OFFLINE
Bronze Member
Rich replied on Sat, Sep 13 2014 2:19 PM

sonavor:

About my number of cartridges, I am paranoid and of the belief that I can't have enough cartridges. However, I will let you know if I decide to sell any.

I was mostly kidding.

I'm more paranoid about the diminishing availability of Type II blank cassettes.


RAJOD
Top 500 Contributor
159 Posts
OFFLINE
Silver Member
RAJOD replied on Tue, Sep 30 2014 11:56 PM

What about mmc cartridges with a worn out needle or broken tip?

Those would need  a new cantilever.    From what I saw on Bennys site is no matter if it was a mmc1, 2 or 3 they will be turned into a MMC4 in performance.

What if you want you broken mmc1/mmc2 to remain as mmc1/mmc2?    

Benny - no cant do it

Axel - I don't see a ruby cantilever listed on his site.   He has carbon which I have no idea if as good as the ruby.

SS - Dunno 

A few months ago someone said a mmc4 can be turned into a mmc1 in performance as all the internal coils of mmc1-4 are the same.   Not sure this is true but maybe.

sonavor
Top 25 Contributor
Texas, United States
3,635 Posts
OFFLINE
Gold Member
I believe Soundsmith can do it and Axel might be able to as well. Yes, Benny doesn't produce new ruby cantilevers.
Page 2 of 3 (36 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS
Beoworld Security Certificate

SSL