Are European lifestyles under threat?

70 repliesLocked

I'm honestly split on this one. I'm an American who spent three years in Iraq and now lives in Germany since 2009. I have experienced this crises from three different perspectives.

Our stupidity and hubris broke Iraq. But I suspect the Sunni Moslem Middle East would have broken itself, given enough time. Pressure from globalism on the one side, and the loss of backing from a cold-war benefactor on the other has made most of these countries ticking time bombs.

I was in Iraq from 2006 through 2008, both pre- and post "surge". What we did was used a temporary mutuality of interest with the Sunni tribes to buy time for a political solution. But the American administration at the time only understood tactics, not political solutions or strategic thinking. So we "kicked the can down the road". The following administration had even less interest in a political solution and continued on the trajectory set by the GWB administration.

About 1.5 million Moslems are expected to arrive in Germany this year, apply for asylum and possibly resettle permanently. On the one hand, I think people have a fundamental right to better their lives. OTOH, when the educated people leave Iraq, Syria, etc. who will remain? Only the combatants. How will we ever find political solutions to these problems if the population that could force a solution leaves en masse? Taking in all comers may be humane for those arriving, but it doesn't address the underlying cause of instability and ensures that more people will die in these wars. A political solution requires a population, because only the people can tell the combatants to lay down their arms. The notion from some elites here that Germany needs skilled doctors and engineers is self- serving and utopian. Most arrivals cannot be integrated into the German economy and will likely fall into the growing moslem parallel societies that are forming on the outskirts of most major industrial cities. The educated Syrians, or Iraqis will probably choose a different country where the wages are better, and where they have fewer bureaucratic hurdles to get their qualifications recognized.

Germany once was a country of law and order. We paid taxes and the German government provided order and security. By allowing unlimited immigration, the government is changing the social contract without a mandate from the people. The future is unpredictable and a lot of people are legitimately concerned about the masses arriving. If it's 1.5 million this year, how many come here next year? The German elite won't have to compete against new arrivals for apartments, wages, etc. It's easy to help out at the train station in Munich and go back to your million-Euro villa after your shift. Labeling anti-immigrant protesters as "right-wing extremists" or using the "Nazi"-word only makes the situation more extreme and plays into the hands of the right-wing political parties such as the NPD.

The one lesson I left Iraq with is that a government is only viable when it's accepted by its population as legitimate. Iraqi unraveled because the Sunnis and Kurds would never accept a Shiite government as their own. The Shiites OTOH would never accept the Sunnis or Kurds as equal citizens. Since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the Middle East has always had a legitimacy in governance problem.

By changing the social contract in Germany without a clear mandate from the people, Mrs. Merkel is betting the fragile legitimacy of the German Government on a positive outcome. In this regard, Mrs. Merkel is the one who is changing Germany more than the million or so new arrivals. I don't want to live in a Germany with a legitimacy-of-governance problem.

Sorry for the long post that has nothing to do with B&O.

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Brian wrote:

......I don't want to live in a Germany with a legitimacy-of-governance problem.

Allow me the question:

where would you want to live instead, then?

MM

Location: Flensborg————Danmark

Right now there are more people on the run from  wars then after the WWII.
So it is my opinion that we actually are in a world war right now.

If the numbers of wars have reached its peak and will start decreasing back to stabilization, we dont know.

 Right now we have an extrea amount from Syria comming.
My worry is if   the war in Syria reach the camptal Damaskus, same thing will happen with Syra as with Iraq, collapsed statestystem, with looting destruction, mass mureder of christian people aso aso.

If that happens I believe the fundament for rebuilding a  consitution in Syira, is gone, and we will have even more refugees from Syria.

Lets hope for stabilization 

Brian wrote:

Sorry for the long post that has nothing to do with B&O.

A thoughtful post is always welcome - so thank you.

Brian.
The first thing that happened after Saddam was removed, was that all christian people was massmurded.
I remember at the time I was on the subway in Stockholm  and had a dialogue with a iraq family.
mum, dad and two children. they explained that they refugeed to Sweden because they were christians.
I asked them if they had any contact with their families, in Iraq.
their answer was that "no, all are dead", all christian people was massmurdered, and that was one year after USA intervened in Iraq.

So my opinion is that no matter dictator, in middle east countries, things are not black and white.
Saddam made shia, sunnies and christian live in peace, even though the horrible dictator.
USA intervened and the result was mess, totally mess.

Syria, USA armed ISIS and conciously let it grow in a proxy war in hope that ISIS would take down Assad., result with weak dicator is totally mess. now it is religios islamic war there with 21 islamic groups fighting with and against each other.
If Jihad will reach Damaskus, it is just a matter of time before the christian population will be murered.

So nomatter if we in west dont like certain dictators from our cultural point of view, to go on with military force  eaither physical or arm certain groups you de-stabilize a geographic area, with consecquences that we in west have no clue of, for the single reason  that we dont live there, we dont know the life there.

I do think that we should learn from East Timor, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, that what ever USA did in the east, actually didnt work, it created more mess.

Its sad that we havent learned yet, when we should have learned by our mistakes way earlier.
I say we, because so many Europan countries passivly supported USAs actions

West need to re-think things and find other ways.
UN is not working.

So as long as wars are created, or consiosly accellerated in the middle east, Europe will continuie to be invaded of people with trashed souls, lives, damaged hearts.

All the people that run to Europe now are human people with hearts and souls, but they come with dirt. Dirt from mess. So all dirt ends up in Europe now.

Of course Europe will take care of the people, but the cost of their dirt...that is HUGE cost.

South Arabia, a shitty country that got their fist law system, constitution 1992, have 3 million air conditioned tents, that are designed for people on their holy walk to Mekka, they are are not taking in ONE SINGLE REFUGEE in their tents.

Europe is now the worlds trash can.

Who should pay the bill ?
The countries that activly signed up for unleagal military interventions against international law ?, and how do you balance that with those countries responsibility that either activly or passivly supported it ?...Europe?.....

Chistian, islamic, no matter, religion kills. Most of victims in middle-east are muslims.

Orava wrote:

Chistian, islamic, no matter, religion kills. Most of victims in middle-east are muslims.

blah-blah and photographs as needed

All religions seem to preach tolerance and understanding, yet each religion has its zealots (power hungry madmen) who cherry pick from their chosen scripture to 'enable' them to commit the most horrendous crimes - against women, other religions, believers of a different faith (I thought there was only one God?) and even each other. They can then opt out of any responsibility for their crimes by saying that a higher power than our laws actually tells them to do these things, to earn their pathway to salvation and enter a heaven full of virgins. Despite religion being hailed as a saviour, it does seem to have caused more death on Earth than anything else. Religious wars have slaughtered untold millions and will carry on doing so. So much for benevolence!

I'm a scientist by profession so although I'm happy for people to hold their beliefs, I will not accept them being foisted on me without evidence of a 'God' for which their isn't any - only belief. Show me proof and I'll become a believer.

Seem to be off track a little now and onto religion rather than European lifestyle but I suppose in a way they are related. As more varied religions and people of different faith enter Europe, then yes, logic says the status quo is changed and lifestyles in Europe will change. I hope we can become more tolerant and accept others, their culture, food, ideas etc so long as it doesn't create conflict. That also works both ways except the West has made a real hash up of going to the East on every occasion since the Crusades.

Dave.

I agree Orova.
decided to mention the christians as they fall into the shadow of all the mess.
I have a christian friend from Syria, he lives in Vancouver and he is despratly trying to get his christian family out of Syria as they know it is a matter of time before they will be murdered if Assad is taken out.

Christian Christensen wrote:

I agree Orova.
decided to mention the christians as they fall into the shadow of all the mess.
I have a christian friend from Syria, he lives in Vancouver and he is despratly trying to get his christian family out of Syria as they know it is a matter of time before they will be murdered if Assad is taken out.

Unfortunately in regards to Syria, people are damned with Assad and will also be damned without him.  Militias will take over as they have elsewhere once the West has abandoned the people but toppled the supposed despot and cause of all the problems.

Dave.

 

To leave the people with him is bad .

to take him off with force is 100 times worse, we have seen it done before, we must learn by misteks 

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