Hi Dude 1 - sorry to leave the reply hanging.

No I did not feel duped that the BC2200 was not "real" B&O. It was an entry to the world of B&O design. It was not true B&O but the price reflected that. The BC2200 cost around 3 times what an average Japanese music centre cost at the time but it looked a lot better. A BS8 costs around 4x what a "decent" iPod dock costs and looks better (if you like that sort of styling).

I should add that 24 years later the BC2200 is still working (could do with new cassette belts) so I guess that B&O specified well. Hopefully the BS8 will prove pretty durable too.

My point was that I would not have leapt into B&O equipment at the level I have now - which probably costs 7 or more times the price of decent alternatives. That was just too big a premium too take on.

The BS8 is an entry level product. B&O has to have some way of enticing newcomers to their products and they cannot do that without producing products that the mainstream market wants (ipod docks) at prices they are prepared to pay. That means making some compromises.

Personally, I'd rather B&O stayed in business producing their traditional high quality products in Europe and some entry level products in China (or Vietnam or wherever) than go bust trying to make every product in Denmark.

I can understand what you are saying, but the BS1 and MX series were manufactured in DK. Here is where the "having to produce the products in Asia" argument falls down.  Then we have the B&O plant in the Czech Republic - whats happened to that?

I feel what we have is a company with dare I say it, impotent management syndrome. They have ultimately set the company up in such a way that they now feel that the only way to compete is to have products manufactured by Asia outsourced corporations. It would be an interesting exercise open one up to see where the majority of components are coming from - my guess would be Sharp, or LG or some other cheap manufacturer. I think the management of B&O should hang their heads in shame. They are producing some products that would fare well coming from Toshiba, but no at all what the public expects from B&O.

I am not against profits and profitability. Loads of European companies with less desireable brand names from all manner of industries are doing quite well not manufacturing in Asia. The Swiss didn't give up when the Japanese quartz and digital watch came along did they? They got better.

My argument is this. You can manufacture B&O in Denmark and remain profitable. You don't need to make it all cheap and cheerful in Asia. Look at BV7, still selling after 6 years, look at BS9000, still selling. It comes down to quality, style and design. The management clearly lack  these traits today.

Dude1 wrote:

My argument is this. You can manufacture B&O in Denmark and remain profitable. You don't need to make it all cheap and cheerful in Asia. Look at BV7, still selling after 6 years, look at BS9000, still selling. It comes down to quality, style and design. The management clearly lack  these traits today.

B&O can't survive by just selling £8k 32" TVs and £3500+ CD players. It'd be nice if they could, but they can't. The BeoVision 7 still sells well, but in comparison to what, the BeoVision 4?

Also, how do you know what sort of profit B&O are making on the BeoVision 7 and BeoSound 9000?

Manufacturing in China is something which IMO should've happened many years ago. With the BeoSound 8, Bang & Olufsen have proven that it's possible to provide quality from something made in the East. Not blowing my own whistle, but I did work for B&O for ~5 years and in all my time with them, I got a chance to use a lot of B&O products which IMO didn't come anywhere NEAR to the BeoSound 8 terms of build quality, or performance or design...

Alex wrote:

Dude1 wrote:

My argument is this. You can manufacture B&O in Denmark and remain profitable. You don't need to make it all cheap and cheerful in Asia. Look at BV7, still selling after 6 years, look at BS9000, still selling. It comes down to quality, style and design. The management clearly lack  these traits today.

B&O can't survive by just selling £8k 32" TVs and £3500+ CD players. It'd be nice if they could, but they can't. The BeoVision 7 still sells well, but in comparison to what, the BeoVision 4?

Also, how do you know what sort of profit B&O are making on the BeoVision 7 and BeoSound 9000?

 

Manufacturing in China is something which IMO should've happened many years ago. With the BeoSound 8, Bang & Olufsen have proven that it's possible to provide quality from something made in the East. Not blowing my own whistle, but I did work for B&O for ~5 years and in all my time with them, I got a chance to use a lot of B&O products which IMO didn't come anywhere NEAR to the BeoSound 8 terms of build quality, or performance or design...

Alex wrote:

 

Dude1 wrote:

My argument is this. You can manufacture B&O in Denmark and remain profitable. You don't need to make it all cheap and cheerful in Asia. Look at BV7, still selling after 6 years, look at BS9000, still selling. It comes down to quality, style and design. The management clearly lack  these traits today.

B&O can't survive by just selling £8k 32" TVs and £3500+ CD players. It'd be nice if they could, but they can't. The BeoVision 7 still sells well, but in comparison to what, the BeoVision 4?

Also, how do you know what sort of profit B&O are making on the BeoVision 7 and BeoSound 9000?

 

Manufacturing in China is something which IMO should've happened many years ago. With the BeoSound 8, Bang & Olufsen have proven that it's possible to provide quality from something made in the East. Not blowing my own whistle, but I did work for B&O for ~5 years and in all my time with them, I got a chance to use a lot of B&O products which IMO didn't come anywhere NEAR to the BeoSound 8 terms of build quality, or performance or design...

Quite correct Alex, you live in the real world if many other contributors to this thread do not.

The rope around the neck of B&O is that factory in Struer. It is a massive overhead that a company the size of B&O cannot afford in this age.

Outsourcing to the incredibly clever and able Chinese is the route to survival. Danish manufacturing will eventualy strangle the company!

Even the factory in the Czech Republic will soon become too expensive as the wage levels climb to match EU levels and the Health and Safety and do gooder brigade gets the upper hand.

Eventually, the Struer operation must become a sales and marketing operation only and all development and manufacturing should move to the Pacific Rim areas, China being the cheapest place to manufacture for many years to come.

This is not the future, it is the present, believe me, I've been there!

What if buyers decide that a premium product should be made in Denmark, and vote with their feet?

Then the price goes up👍

joeyboygolf wrote:

 

Eventually, the Struer operation must become a sales and marketing operation only and all development and manufacturing should move to the Pacific Rim areas, China being the cheapest place to manufacture for many years to come.

This is not the future, it is the present, believe me, I've been there!

 

Crikey you've opened a whole new can of worms there Graham 😉

j0hnbarker wrote:

What if buyers decide that a premium product should be made in Denmark, and vote with their feet?

I believe that the vast majority of the market don't care where it is made. They only care that it appears to be and is marketed as attainable by the more successful members of the community and it will sell like hot cakes!

And then there are a small number of Beoworld members..............

Step1 wrote:

joeyboygolf wrote:

Eventually, the Struer operation must become a sales and marketing operation only and all development and manufacturing should move to the Pacific Rim areas, China being the cheapest place to manufacture for many years to come.

This is not the future, it is the present, believe me, I've been there!

Crikey you've opened a whole new can of worms there Graham 😉

Agree and disagree: on what basis do you argue that development (does that include design?) should go to the Pacific Rim area?

What intrigues me is what happens when China (1) lets its currency float and (2) its working class' wages reaches parity with other nations?

We have seen Japan grab the manufacturing crown and then loose it to Korea, then Korea starts outsourcing to Vietnam, or where ever. 

So I ask, what after China?

Friends who do business in China have answered that China's domestic market is so huge that it will power their manufacturing engine for far longer.

That may be true, but eventually the work will move yet once more ... whether it be to Mongolia, Ethiopia or Bolivia.

But I don't believe the essence of Scandinavian design will be transplanted that easily.

joeyboygolf wrote:

And then there are a small number of Beoworld members..............

Quite, Graham. That's why we're here and not messing about in the BeoLounge.