yes agree.. My dealer told me Bang & Olufsen said that maybe my eyes are more sensitive than 'normal' people I notice the judder...... I bet you can imagine how livid I am right now.. sooner they pick it up the better

Solidsnake wrote:

Personally I'd feel a lot better if they could at least acknowledge the issue and that they are working on it.  Otherwise, my Avant is going back too.  

Completely agree. I would probably keep it if they acknowledge the issue and said we commit to working a solution-  software and/or hardware

jbrown77 wrote:

yes agree.. My dealer told me Bang & Olufsen said that maybe my eyes are more sensitive than 'normal' people I notice the judder...... I bet you can imagine how livid I am right now.. sooner they pick it up the better

Not sure if that's true or not, I haven't ever seen or done a test with judder to know if it's uniformly detected or not. I do remember back in the day of DLP rear projection sets, the early ones with 4 segment color wheels, and for some people even the ones with 7 segment wheels, saw rainbow flashes if you kind of looked out of the corner of your eye. Unfortunately once you "learned" how to see them you started seeing them all the time, I saw them right away so DLP wasn't a technology or me. I tend to think judder would be detectable by most though.

I feel sad for B&O, for decades people have been on their case for taking too long to adopt new tech (that is making sure it was both technically mature and was going to last in the market), and now when they push forward with WISA and 4K people complain that their gear isn't mature. The 4k anyway.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems. 🙁

Jeff wrote:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems. 🙁

Jeff, that's a slightly naive and aggravating comment to make on here, simply as it's clearly a software issue that's causing the upscaling motion issues. Other manufacturer's 4K TVs aren't suffering the same issues, with the same panel.

So, to say B&O is 'damned if you do' - as if we should be overjoyed that they've delivered a 4K TV with display issues - is somewhat naive in my view. They should have got this stuff right, before they release the product. A fundamental function of a TV is to display a working picture. The posters on here are claiming their Avant isn't achieving this. Saying B&O is 'damned if they do', somewhat suggesting that these users *shouldn't* be complaining about their sub-standard picture, just because they've got a state-of-the-art TV, is almost beyond words.

I've just informed my dealer I don't want my (yet to be delivered) Avant installing for the foreseeable.

Are you sure it's a s/w issue, and not, say, a problem with video scaling hardware? At this point I don't think anyone knows outside B&O. But I stand by what I said.

I've seen no end of whining and complaining about B&O for not following whatever niche, high end flavor of the week for audio sampling rate and bit depth are, sticking with more proven solutions. Now I see them push out a new product, and rather than show some patience for a new product with teething troubles I see an awful lot of people slagging B&O pretty harshly on this.

I agree that it should have been fixed before being shipped, but as I have no idea why they have this issue, what they missed in testing, or what happened after the fact in production (a chip exchanged for another in the processing electronics, a s/w revision that wasn't fully regression tested) to cause this.

Either way, I see people complaining if they push it out early, or if they don't. And unless you've lived with one of the other 4k sets on the same sources it's hard to say they don't have the same issues. I don't know.

If they spent as much in SOFTWARE design as they do on hardware design they woudn't be in the mess they are.

I was in the B&O store the other day and had the opportunity to watch the World Cup match on a BV11-55 and BV Avant side by side. The Avant was fed by a Motorola STB on ESPN (which has variable compression depending on what the provider is doing to the feeds to suit its needs). The BV11 was using the ESPN app on Apple TV with a direct high-speed connection. Zero judder on the Avant and terrible on the BV11 via Apple TV. 

In addition, when both TVs were running the same cable feed I would have defied a reasonable person to tell the difference between the two TVs. Once again, it says to me that Vision Clear and the Viewing Panel are great equalizers across the BV line. Whether you care for that or not is personal. 

Based on this sample of 1(that is, crap, statistically) I would hesitate to say that BV Avant (as a product) cannot handle football without judder: I just don't buy it. So what source should NEVER show judder on a top-quality TV? BluRay.  If there is ever judder on BluRay with a top set, to me, the TV has to go back. That is exactly what I would test on the suspect Avant, and I would draw a hard line on the result.  

If you are depending on digital/broadband throughput for picture quality there is a variable that none of us, worldwide, can control. I can recall times when I had problems and on different call the cable company put boosters on my house, ran new coax cable, and put filters on the line. What they don't tell you is that they control the throughput on channels, individually, in the signal path. And they can increase or decrease capacity by neighborhood in the US, though it is tough to get them to admit it. I have had miraculous improvement in internet speed by just making a call to tech support...explain that. 

The answer in the US is to use the OTA digital signal, but it has it's own set of issues, particularly since the cable companies have so much political clout and own both free and paid services. As far a SD material goes, I feel sorry for those who are stuck watching it. It's bad, and I have yet to see a 1080p or better TV that makes it tolerable. And I don't see why any company wastes any develop resources trying to make it better. 

Sorry for the rambling, but I was multitasking and just missed Chile's goal.  Great game, judder or not.  And thanks to whichever BeoWorlder taught me that if it doesn't judder on football, it doesn't have a problem. 

Interesting observation on the Avant vs. BV11. I suspect that some of the problem, if not most of it, lies with how the video engine handles poor quality signal, overly compressed, artifacted, whatever. I am wondering if, despite testing it as much as they could, that the Avant is encountering signals from the available sources many people have, streaming, cable, that are not well compressed and which suffer from their own issues, and the video engine can actually make those worse. Anytime you have to rely on upscaling and other processing on a signal there can be artifacts in some signals that cause problems. Signal processing algorithms are designed based on the expected signals, if something is outside what you planned for it can be expected to cause problems you never thought of. 

Avant 55 is being picked up today. A little sad and very disappointed. On occasion you go 'wow' what a picture...others you think this is just unbelievably poor.  Will get myself off to the local TC store and buy an off the shelf panel until the Avant issues are fully resolved.

It will be interesting to see how the picture is on a £400 42" Samsung or alike compared to a £6000 Avant

It would be interesting to know the geographic distribution of the problems, are sets in the US and Europe about equal in reported problems, or is say Europe worse than the US, or one country's cable worse than anothers? That would narrow it down to a true design defect or an issue with one particular type of signal source. I still think something in the signal itself is interacting with the TVs processing that wasn't expected.

I've seen this kind of thing before. On one project I worked on, we had numerous CCTV B&W TV cameras located around an area used for training. They had the usual types of things CCTV surveillance setups have, alarms to let you know when it detected movement in one camera, tracking of moving people on the moveable cameras, etc. It also was being used to develop algorithms that would track groups of people, to determine things like are they bunching up too much, are they too far apart, are they moving properly according to what they were taught. The idea was to have some of this automated so it could provide an automatic report at the end of the training exercise, other than relying solely on the trainers calibrated eyeball.

The problem was that a number of the cameras were dropping video frames, which drove the algorithm nuts, it couldn't handle the dropped frames. So we went about investigating why some cameras were dropping frames. The cameras were analog, and fed into an encoder to convert them to digital video, which was then multiplexed with other cameras and sent via fiberoptic to the control room where the main processing was done. I asked if there was any relation to encoder version, and it turned out that all cameras with the latest encoder hardware were fine, but I was told it couldn't be the old encoders as some dropped frames, some didn't. When we visited the site, I looked at the monitors for about 5 minutes and said, it is an encoder problem. The cameras that were dropping frames were uniformly the cameras that had, in their field of view, large blank areas of the same shade and intensity, large flat roofs, large areas of white concrete, that all looked a uniform color or shade of gray in the camera view. The old encoders attached to cameras that had no large uniform areas didn't drop frames, and for the ones attached to cameras that could be pointed in different directions rather than fixed, they would not drop frames until you moved the field of view to a place that had uniform areas. For some reason, the old encoders hiccuped when they tried to process and encode/compress video with large blank areas.

I suspect this is similar to why the upconversion on the Avant has issues but only on some sets, something is in the video stream that the s/w doesn't like. Either that or it's a s/w issue or hardware issue that changed. In my production experience, we had detailed listings of what lot of each component was used in building each item, so that you could go back and say, yeah, all the units with an issue had this chip out of this lot so we need to pull all of the ones using this item. I would hope B&O has that level of detail in their production process documentation and history.