dilznik wrote:

TWG wrote:

I think you don't get the point: B&O claims to be a traditional company with strong values etc. which always made very good stuff in Denmark. When they're moving their production to Czech for example, they are not traditional they don't want to make even more money out of their products; nothing more! So to the customers it looks like a kind of fraud!

Okay, I find that reasonable.  So they can have some cheap labor somewhere assemble the boards, press the metal, blow the glass, solder the chips and then send it all to Denmark to assemble?  I have no problems with that since that would also reduce costs while keeping the spirit of Made in Denmark.  Then you wouldn't need a factory in DK, you'd just need a guy assembling and two guys boxing it all up and shipping it out.  In fact, they could do that and call it handmade.  I can live with that, no problem.

Fine that we understand each other :-)
But I still think the metal casings, design and main assembly etc. HAS TO STAY in Denmark.
Why should a Czech or Chinese worker identify itself with the tradition of B&O? There's no reason for it, it's just a job.
Personaly that is a difference for me and for the quality of the product at the end of the assembly line. It may sound funny but there's a difference between a unpersonal product without any "relationship" to it and a more personal product assembled from a worker who has some kind of relationship to the product or the company and loves his job. The endresult in the 2nd case will be MUCH better.

TWG wrote:

Why should a Czech or Chinese worker identify itself with the tradition of B&O? There's no reason for it, it's just a job.
Personaly that is a difference for me and for the quality of the product at the end of the assembly line. It may sound funny but there's a difference between a unpersonal product without any "relationship" to it and a more personal product assembled from a worker who has some kind of relationship to the product or the company and loves his job. The endresult in the 2nd case will be MUCH better.

Mayyyyyyybe.  I have my doubts that some Danish guy who gets the metal working job might have some sudden burst of national and corporate pride if he was a lazy git in the first place.  Then he's just be a lazy git who got himself a job cutting metal.  It takes more than just having a job at a place in your homeland for a company of your homeland to make the average worker excited.

If he was a big fan of B&O in the first place and it was his dream job then great.  You're in luck.  But what if there was some guy in China who would pee his pants with glee if he got a job for B&O cutting metal?  He'd probably be a good worker and do a good job too.

Earlier I mentioned socio-political reasons for maintaining a manufacturing industry. An interesting side question that arises is -

Is a publicly traded company's primary responsibility to it's shareholders or it's customers?

Puncher wrote:

Is a publicly traded company's primary responsibility to it's shareholders or it's customers?

Life is a great balancing act, Puncher: any company finds itself pulled 'simultaniously' in different directions, which are defined by the different interests of its stakeholders (such as shareholders, management and employees eg) but also by the influence of the environment it operates in (such as the socio-political one, indeed).  I'd assume, a customer base is 'just' a part of the latter - forgot to say.  It seems that some companies have been able to keep the balance right for quite a long time - and some haven't...

I would be disheartened to know the bv10, a £6k tv was just a samsung product in disguise its classic make it cheap in lowcost countries and sell high in posh boutique.

quality is dropping in motorcars like bmw 3 series and audi are losing quality in last 10 years its the same nearly with all consumer goods there are lower quality and throw away.

how about factories  in like denmark were conditions are good as well as strong workers representation you dont get that in many other parts of the world its a fall in standards.

B&O often state there made in denmark high standards when a company gets run by accountants the inevitable happens low cost sourcing.

its happened before with loads of branded japanese made bno products they always seemed to be the least loved by bno enthusiasts.

there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe.

if bno are going to make entry level products outside denmark then they ought to sell them cheap.

if you take work outside your own country it always come back to haunt you in lack of employment and expertise in the future.

MGBGTV8 wrote:

there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe

Denmark's electricity is 2.5 times more expensive than Czech electricity, for example.

http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/prijzen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2006/2006-1945-wm.htm

I for one, support B&O building products in a more cost-effective location.  This ensures the product is either better priced to the consumer or the company gets a higher margin that can ensure its survival.

The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expense from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

bayerische wrote:

The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expanse from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

The Beo5 is (on paper) a fantastic product.
As you wrote in your post, a couple of  factors are keeping it from becoming the leading product.

Honestly I think more of half the beo5 remotes are just fancy paperweights right now.

I would love to see a beo6 remote in beo4 form factor with besides the usual buttons, a real scroll wheel and a nice little display.
Off course with wifi connectivity for 2-way connectivity and apps to add further integration, customization and personalization.
Easy programming like the pronto or logitech for basic use is a given....

I would gladly pay 1000 euros for that. 

cooldude wrote:

bayerische wrote:

The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expanse from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

The Beo5 is (on paper) a fantastic product.
As you wrote in your post, a couple of  factors are keeping it from becoming the leading product.

Honestly I think more of half the beo5 remotes are just fancy paperweights right now.

I would love to see a beo6 remote in beo4 form factor with besides the usual buttons, a real scroll wheel and a nice little display.
Off course with wifi connectivity for 2-way connectivity and apps to add further integration, customization and personalization.
Easy programming like the pronto or logitech for basic use is a given....

I would gladly pay 1000 euros for that. 

 

Cooldude, I'm with you, however, my Beo5, thanks to Keith, is not a fancy paperweight, but in use daily much more than my Beo4. Beo4 is for music, Beo5 for everything else. Beolink 1000, 5000 and 7000 are fancy paperweights though. 😂

Puncher wrote:

I'm really intrigued by the "must be assembled in Denmark or I won't buy it" viewpoint. If I was to be concerned, I would worry more about the source and quality of the components and materials used in the assembly rather than the location of final assembly itself. I can understand the "Danish furniture" analogy but modern electronic assembly has little, if anything, to do with Artisans or Craftsmen - most are, at best, semi-skilled line operators and so it's difficult to see what extra value is added by a Dane screwing the case together rather than a Czech.

If we assume that the line operators are identically trained and work on duplicate assembly lines, operating to the same quality plans and controls then all that is left is the notional level of "Danishness". What if the Danish manufacturing line was manned by non-Danish nationals? - will those assemblies be classed as Danish or not?

I'm happy that the Danishness is "installed" at the design stage, where the parts are designed, engineered and materials selected and specified (aluminium parts and processing being a key example).

The nationality is not the issue, the location of producing is. I know I have to pay more for articles made in Europe. This due to labor costs, cost of living, resources (like the example above about electricity), etc. The fact that I want to pay more is related to the mentioned socio-economics factors. I strongly believe we should have employment opportunities along the line in Europe.

So I expect a bit more "European Built" in the offering than just Danish design to meet that requirement. And yes, I agree with the other remarks that pricing is important as well, probably leading to manufacturing decisions like producing in Czech, Poland, ... which in itself is not an issue.