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Yes, I have quite a few CDs from the 80s which I'm pleased I chose to hang on to, and I'm doing what Tim Jarman describes here: going hunting for older CDs of my favorite artists. (Not all are better, but as you describe, don't trust the remasters).
Thanks for the link Soundproof. Tim Jarman gives a great summary of where the CD has been and where it's gone/ going.
Graham
Oh dear. The settings on my Beomaster 8000 are: Bass +3, Treble +5 and Loudness ON. Sometimes I even switch in a Cona from the Speaker 2 outlets...
Does this mean I'm cloth-eared?
Whew! I'm not alone!
My Beomaster 4500 is presently set to bass +2, treble +5, I leave loundness off in the S.STORE but often turn it on, all through my Beolab 5000 panels and twin Conas.
I love detail in my listening and lots of richness.
I just ran sound for a church gathering about an hour ago and it was all midrange. I was tuning the whole time... I understand its totally different, but still - GAG!
Location: San Francisco
It's probably worth noting that the 'Loudness Wars' to which Puncher is referring (in the opening post of this thread) is actually not about the 'loudness' switch or tone controls on your stereo, but instead the way in which a large proportion of modern recordings have been 'mashed' to make absolutely everything the same volume. Definitely worth watching the video.
In terms of bass and treble controls, IMO the best way to think of turning up the bass and treble is that you're actually turning down the midrange. The midrange is by far the most important frequency band from a musical perspective, as it's where all the harmonic information of almost all the instruments you'll be listening to lies. Try listening to a recording through just a tweeter, you just won't be able to tell what's going on. Same with listening through just a woofer. Almost all vocal information sits in the midrange. It's where your ear is most sensitive to details in the sound.
By boosting the treble+bass, you're removing a lot of this information. It's easy to become accustomed to a bass/treble heavy sound, but I know the best bits of my music all take up space in the midband...
FWIW, turning down the midrange tends to make it much easier to talk over the music, as the music sits 'either side' of your voice instead of taking up the same frequency bands (and making you talk louder). Hence why the best systems for background music often tend to be Bose Lifestyle systems - no midrange at all!
... turning down the midrange tends to make it much easier to talk over the music, as the music sits 'either side' of your voice instead of taking up the same frequency bands (and making you talk louder).
How true. Some like to talk over music, and some like to listen to music -- you can often tell which is which by how their music systems are tuned.
As Alex points out, this is not so much about how your system is set up, as what it gets to work with.
You can probably make pasta sauce using only Heinz ketchup and no vegetables -- maybe sprinkle some salt and ground pepper on for effect, when you serve. But it's not really pasta sauce, is it?
Then there are pasta sauces that have been made over several days, according to very specific family recipes.
A lot of the music released on CDs today goes the Heinz ketchup route, and that's the point of the Loudness Wars.
How true. Some like to talk over music, and some like to listen to music -- you can often tell which is which by how their music systems are tuned.
Absolutely! I know two people who own Bose Lifestyle systems, and I can be pretty sure neither of them have ever really sat down and listened to music on their systems - they'll always be playing in the background. The midrange is where the real musical magic happens (although it has to be supported with good top end and bass of course!).
You can probably make pasta sauce using only Heinz ketchup and no vegetables -- maybe sprinkle some salt and ground pepper on for effect, when you serve. But it's not really pasta sauce, is it?
Then there are pasta sauces that have been made over several days, according to very specific family recipes.
A lot of the music released on CDs today goes the Heinz ketchup route, and that's the point of the Loudness Wars.
I'm hungry.
This loudness/compression crap on CDs is annoying and IMHO ruining the music... even as background music, it is especially bothersome with the BS5 since the mix of old and new CDs leads to need to constantly adjusting the volume. I've also learned the hard way that "remastered" is not always better. I've lost CDs over the years and often the "new and improved" remastered version is a dissapointment. I guess I'm off to the resale stores for my CD replacements now...
To diverge a bit... has anybody compared Zappa's Hot Rats LP with the CD remaster. They sound totally different (the CD seems to move the previously "backing horns" to the front and moves the guitar/bass to the back). Did Frank's hearing change? Is the remastered CD his original vision (which was messed up by the record company on the LP as too jazzy - don't know how much artistic control FZ had at the time)? Is he making a joke? Did he just decide to do something different because he could? I guess we'll never know...
Stan
I don't know much about the recording process, but it would be intresting if someone could explain:
- What is the point of raising the volume in the first place? Is it that for a given volume on a system the sound will appear to be better if it is louder, or are there other benefits?
- Where in the process is the loudness / compression introduced? Are the dynamics lost already in the recording process, in mixing or in the final transfer/CD mix? Is the "source" kept in a high quality format anywhere so that in the future new "remastered" CD's with better dynamics can be released (opposite from now), or are recordings from the present time forever doomed to be of lesser quality/dynamics?
In the future I hope someone will utilize digital media to actually go one step beyond CD's and improve quality. With modern broadband connections and cheap storage it should be possible to use a lossless format with better specification than CD's. When you buy a song it could be downloaded in multiple formats, one high-quality, full dynamics version for hifi stereos, and one "compressed" version for iPods, cars etc. where it actually makes sense. It should all happen automatically, behind the scenes!
Mattias
I don't know much about the recording process, but it would be intresting if someone could explain:
- What is the point of raising the volume in the first place? Is it that for a given volume on a system the sound will appear to be better if it is louder, or are there other benefits?
Not quite sure to be honest - there aren't really any from a listener's point of view. A lot of artists are fooled into thinking there could be financial benefits because their recordings 'stand out'. The record labels seem blinded by the same misconception too...
The artist/businessmen behind the music gets played the first 20 seconds of two or three mixes, one louder (which engineers hate having to do) and one quieter (which is what most professional engineers ACTUALLY want) and maybe a few different levels between. The first 20 seconds of a 'crushed' loud recording usually sound better on a pair of mediocre, poorly set-up hifi/monitoring system in an acoustically poor room, but it's very disappointing to sit down and LISTEN to at length on a decent system which could otherwise make the music sound ace.
Try comparing two of your favourite recordings, but turn one of them up a couple of notches on the BeoSound - you'll find the louder one naturally sounds better, even if it didn't before. However, as said above, what sounds louder/better in the short-run can often sound worse in the long run, especially when you squash the dynamics out of the music in the process of making it louder...
Listeners will just end up turning the volume knob down if they find it too loud anyway, so what's the point in making records so loud?
- Where in the process is the loudness / compression introduced? Are the dynamics lost already in the recording process, in mixing or in the final transfer/CD mix? Is the "source" kept in a high quality format anywhere so that in the future new "remastered" CD's with better dynamics can be released (opposite from now), or are recordings from the present time forever doomed to be of lesser quality/dynamics?
It seems to vary. Take for example the remastered versions of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours; the original master (which is or was available on CD) sounds fantastic. Very dynamic, all the instruments/guitar strums are still there as they should be, jumping out of the speakers at you, and the drums still sound fantastic/dynamic/punchy. Compare this to the latest 'remastered' version and you'll find a lot of the 'realness' of the original recording is gone.
In this example, the squashing of dynamics has happened at a mastering stage (which is where it normally happens, after the recording & mixing process). Making something sound 'loud' in the recording studio is normally very difficult, as a recording studio engineer will know how to make equipment work musically, and do what the musicians kinda wanted, but won't necessarily know how to make a waveform take up as much volume/loudness as possible without sounding crackley/distorted/compressed (which is what a mastering engineer does, along with making the whole album sound 'continuous' and complete).
A different example could be say, the Red Hot Chilli Peppers. Their music is some of the worst recorded music I've ever listened to - talk about compressed and clipped! This is quite obviously a recording which has just been recorded loud and noisy from the outset - and unfortunately seems quite unlistenable at any decent length of time.
I can listen to good dynamic music for hours on end every day when listening on good speakers. Listen to squished, compressed, 'loudness-wars-victim' music at length and you'll find your ears getting tired quite quickly. You'll end up sitting in a quiet room to get away from the noise!
Sadly, most people don't seem to care about the loudness wars as 80% of the population listens to music on the speakers in their laptops/computers and the earbuds connected to their iPhones. Because these devices often have volume limits as a result of EU legislations, the louder the recording a better - as it helps to cut across the background noise. If the EU removed this restrictions, and instead introduced more legislation to do with the education of the effects of hearing damage, then none of these problems would exist (in my opinion of course)!
In the future I hope someone will utilize digital media to actually go one step beyond CD's and improve quality. With modern broadband connections and cheap storage it should be possible to use a lossless format with better specification than CD's. When you buy a song it could be downloaded in multiple formats, one high-quality, full dynamics version for hifi stereos, and one "compressed" version for iPods, cars etc. where it actually makes sense. It should all happen automatically, behind the scenes!Mattias
Absolutely agreed!
MP3, AAC, WMA and other compressed PCM formats/variants for iPods/iPhones - i can't hear the difference between 192k MP3 and the original audio on my iPhone to be honest!
SACD/Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) for listening at home. PWM is a much smarter way of doing things than the conventional way of recording/storing/reproducing digital audio - it almost always seems to sound less angular and edgy! Unfortunately, PWM recording takes up a lot more processing power than the conventional digital format and would make a lot of modern recording techniques impossible to do!
Incidentally, PWM is actually how B&O's ICEPower amps work. Very clever technology!
Hope I haven't confused people.
Reading back through this post, I probably have. Oh well...
It seems to vary. Take for example the remastered versions of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours; the original master (which is or was available on CD) sounds fantastic. Very dynamic, all the instruments/guitar strums are still there as they should be, jumping out of the speakers at you, and the drums still sound fantastic/dynamic/punchy. Compare this to the latest 'remastered' version and you'll find a lot of the 'realness' of the original recording is gone.
What a coincidence, just this morning I dug that up on Spotify - haven't heard the album in 20 years or so - and was badly disappointed. None of the lovely sound of my memories left. Dreams was just about the only track that I bothered listening through, just because it's such a beatiful tune. "Destroyed" would be the word I'd use...
There was this brilliant TV series (can't remember the original English title) that in each episode dissected a classic album track by track, telling how it was made, and even let the recording engineers pick up single instrument tracks from the master tapes and tell what had been going on behind them. Rumours was featured in it as well. It really made me appreciate the hard work that was done in the old days.
It seems to vary. Take for example the remastered versions of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours; the original master (which is or was available on CD) sounds fantastic. Very dynamic, all the instruments/guitar strums are still there as they should be, jumping out of the speakers at you, and the drums still sound fantastic/dynamic/punchy. Compare this to the latest 'remastered' version and you'll find a lot of the 'realness' of the original recording is gone.
What a coincidence, just this morning I dug that up on Spotify - haven't heard the album in 20 years or so - and was badly disappointed. None of the lovely sound of my memories left. Dreams was just about the only track that I bothered listening through, just because it's such a beatiful tune. "Destroyed" would be the word I'd use...
There was this brilliant TV series (can't remember the original English title) that in each episode dissected a classic album track by track, telling how it was made, and even let the recording engineers pick up single instrument tracks from the master tapes and tell what had been going on behind them. Rumours was featured in it as well. It really made me appreciate the hard work that was done in the old days.
It's called "
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