Indeed - there are Atmos certified receivers which also have their own upscaling / downmixing algorithms.

Those algorithms cannot be that different from TrueImage.

Its not obvious to me that both cannot coexist on a B&O product, but time will tell I guess.

There was of course something in the Geoff Martin interview with Henryk which raised some questions about whether they see the need for Atmos, beyond the standalone Stage, so who knows.

But I'll take an expandable Stage 2 (or whatever it is), even if its not Atmos.

Millemissen wrote:

Mikipidia wrote:

and it’ll loose the Atmos certification unfortunately because of the way the TrueImage works currently and the restrictions Dolby puts on the Atmos/TrueHD license

Why is that?

They did not loose the Dolby HD licence - it (the Atmos) is just a decoder…..I guess Dolby will be happy with the money they become.

MM

Mikipidia wrote:

No it’s not, it’s an upscaler like TrueImage is. You can technically have Atmos with 1 speaker or 4 or 3 or what ever combo. I was confused about this too until Henrik enlightened us on the podcast a while ago. Besides this to be able to implement it you have to meet certain parameters Dolby sets for it to be accreditted as such. Secondly they haven’t figured out a way yet to run two upscalers on the same chip at the same time yet. If I am not mistaken Geoff also said something similar with his interview he did with Henrik on his BOTF channel.

Secondly the cost, for PL/WiSa they’d need to implement a DSSE board like you find in the eclipse/harmony and the bare cost of that board without psu etc was around €900 pre chip shortage so I imagine that price to make has gone up considerably.

That would mean a “super” stage would be atleast €1500 more than the current one if they don’t change a heck of a lot more to fit it all and or do nicer cable management and or have potential stand option.

If they were to do something like a fully built “super” stage I easily see it being €5000 ex panel or anything else. New: Beovision Harmony, Beolab 50's, Beolab 18's, Beolab 17's, Beolab 3's, Beosound 9000 mk3, Beosound Stage & LG, Beosound 2, Beoplay M3, Beoplay A1, Beoplay H4 gen 2, Beoplay E8 3.0

Mikipedia on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Mikipedia

mikipedi4 on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mikipedi4

Old: Beovision Eclipse, Beolab 1's, Beolab 2, Beovision 10-46, Overture 2300, beolab 8000's, Beolab 4000's, Beovision avant 32" etc. etc.

Why Stage would ever need some old Trueimage processing? Trueimage could never ever achieve same as Dolby Atmos or DTS:X. It is only upmixer without metadata like Dolby surround and Dts neural X. Please just use common standard's and audio formats that movies and tv-shows are made and as artist intended. It is night and day difference for REAL 3D audio (Atmos/DTS:X) and upmixed one. It can sound nice and even add for experience but it is not anywhere near the same.

Yes. Atmos can scale from few speakers to a lot of speakers it does not mean that it is just upmixed for let's say 7.1.4 setup. All modern AVR have multiple decoders inside and you can use those mostly as you want. If you have dts 5.1 you can use dolby surround to upmix this to example 7.1.4 or you can use Neural X to do it if you prefer or even Auro3D. Limitation probably is that Dolby won't let any upmixer work with ATMOS signal. That is prohibited also on every device. ATMOS is ATMOS period. Why you would ever want to use Trueimage or anythin else with Atmos is good question also. Atmos can scale up to 32 channels already in home equiment (Trinnov32). 

Atmos sound objects are precisely made in recording studio to move in 3d space. Your receiver then know after calibration that space and can locate sound as intended. Atmos is carried with dd+ as lossy or true hd as lossless with metadata. Upmixers won't have this important info. Wireless transmitter 1 is not 5000eur and have WiSa and Powerlink.

The irony in Eclipse and Harmony is that LG tv's in them have Dolby Atmos. Sound center's have everything they need to do Atmos expect decoder/licence. Harmony wont even understand True Hd lossless signal that is quite embarrassment for 10.000eur sound center. Yes you can use PCM but still. Customer is not the winner on this stubbornness to stick with old tech when everyone else is using latest tech for half decade.

Sony is making same stupid thing with Ps5 and new "3d audio" for headphones and now even for tv. When same time Xbox and pc had years native Atmos games. Same game with real Atmos vs ps5 version 7.1 upmixed is not even a contest.

Anyway I would be really happy to upgrade Stage mk1->mk2. Hopefully for surround option and please add option for subwoofer also. (Yes in most cases it really don't need one but on every review they are whining that it does not have an option. After option to add Beolab 19 they could whine how much that subwoofer will cost you but atleast it would be an option 😎)

I am not against this at all so don't get me wrong, I am merely trying to explain where they are coming from and possible obstructions in doing so and being realistic in price expectations. I don't fully know what Dolby demands and if B&O is willing to give that up for instance, I know what they have said so far regarding this ''issue''.

I wouldn't mind at all if the soundcenter could be retrofitted/updated with TrueHD / Atmos. I don't miss it much honestly, but it would pull them up a bit with the times.

That said, the TrueImage does it way better than anyone else's I've ever tried for any sort of normal mixed use (music & film) and it's so seamless. TrueImage is still something B&O should be very proud of!

Mikipidia wrote:

I am not against this at all so don't get me wrong, I am merely trying to explain where they are coming from and possible obstructions in doing so and being realistic in price expectations. I don't fully know what Dolby demands and if B&O is willing to give that up for instance, I know what they have said so far regarding this ''issue''.

I wouldn't mind at all if the soundcenter could be retrofitted/updated with TrueHD / Atmos. I don't miss it much honestly, but it would pull them up a bit with the times.

That said, the TrueImage does it way better than anyone else's I've ever tried for any sort of normal mixed use (music & film) and it's so seamless. TrueImage is still something B&O should be very proud of!

I saw the interview with Geoff this week on YouTube with BOTF. There BOTF asks Geoff on their stand on Atmos. Geoff was very clear that only 'atmos' is not their goal. He said 'What do you mean with supporting atmos? Just so that your processor can decode the atmos signal and send it to your speakers? Atmos makes no sense in many devices such as phones.' 

But he's not entirely right with the new technologies headphone producers have come up with, see Apple with their spatial audio. Especially in headphones this works pretty well. I think B&O is trying to figure out how that could work within their systems.

If you have a complete 7.1.2 B&O surround setup than decoding atmos makes sense. TrueImage could still be active, as it could incorporate room compensation etc. Or it could mix down the Atmos track to your 3.1 set or whatever number of speakers. 

Will the soundcenters be upgrade able to Atmos support? I'm not sure if thats possible, it could be just software but if it is like @Mikipedia is saying that Dolby is requiring a very specific way of working with Atmos it could mean B&O need to change their hardware approach to receiving and decoding audio signals. That would require a hardware upgrade. I remember in the old CRT BV Avants your could upgrade the hardware of the surround processor, they did that many years back with the BV from my parents to support new formats. Also B&O said the internals of the Beolab 28 will be upgrade able when new wireless formats are required. 

Anyway, it will be just guessing from our side until they release it. It could also be typical B&O to do it completely different from all manufacturers and choose for a whole different approach. 

Yes its not entirely clear to me too.

Watching the Geoff Martin interview, he makes the point that

-  TrueImage is an up mixer / down mixer, and

-   Atmos contains (a) up mixing down mixing (b) a decoder (c) some virtualisation (up down firing) and (d) some speaker configuration stuff.

Yes he says you cant put them in the same bucket (by which I think he means they are not the same / that similar / comparable).

But I wouldnt conclude from the interview that there is a complex overlap between the two, nor that the two cannot coexist.

Again, other brands have receivers with their own up / down mixing and are also Atmos certified.

As for whether B&O have the enthusiasm to implement Atmos certification (more broadly than just the Stage), who knows.

As an aside, I had a Linn surround system before B&O, and however slick TrueImage is, I dont find its spatial image creation significantly different to what I had with my Linn.

Being someone who has been waiting for a loooong time a Stage/Beosystem4 kind of product I am very happy although I made my move last year and bought myself a beosystem 4. I would be happy though to upgrade to the new stage but having already eight speakers using powerlink connections (some are wisa as well but I always prefer a cable connection) it would have no meaning for me. B&O has always paid attention to backward compatibility so I would like to believe that somehow they will stick to it. I fully support the mozart platform (don't get me wrong) but all these people who have bought beolabs till the new platform showed up should start all over again? They would have to sell their existing speakers to get the mozart ones? Their could be a middle road....let's say something like a converter. A box that could contain the mozart platform and can be connected to the non-mozart speakers. Somehting like the beocreate board but much simpler to install.

Tassos wrote:

Being someone who has been waiting for a loooong time a Stage/Beosystem4 kind of product I am very happy although I made my move last year and bought myself a beosystem 4. I would be happy though to upgrade to the new stage but having already eight speakers using powerlink connections (some are wisa as well but I always prefer a cable connection) it would have no meaning for me. B&O has always paid attention to backward compatibility so I would like to believe that somehow they will stick to it. I fully support the mozart platform (don't get me wrong) but all these people who have bought beolabs till the new platform showed up should start all over again? They would have to sell their existing speakers to get the mozart ones? Their could be a middle road....let's say something like a converter. A box that could contain the mozart platform and can be connected to the non-mozart speakers. Somehting like the beocreate board but much simpler to install.

No as far as I understood the Mozart platform is not supposed to work in surround setups. Its just for music in multirooms and in multi speakers setup. 

swestland wrote:

No as far as I understood the Mozart platform is not supposed to work in surround setups. Its just for music in multirooms and in multi speakers setup.