elephant wrote:

I am truly puzzled.

 

I always thought that a subwoofer was goodness.

 

 

Sure things change and get smarter.

 

And yes the BeoLab 2 is now 17 years.

 

 

Here is the BL2’s specs from the BeoWorld product section .....

 

 

Maximum Sound Pressure Level 110 dB (stereo)

 

Power amplifier module 1 unit Class D

 

Long-term maximum output power 850 watts

 

Effective Frequency range* 23 - 120 Hz (upper limit determined by setup)

 

Cabinet principle Double balanced passive radiator system

 

Magnetically shielded Yes

 

Woofer Passive radiator 1 x 250 mm flat diaphragm

 

2 x 250 mm flat diaphragm

 

Net volume 13 litre

 

 

Here are the BL9’s relevant specifications .....

 

 

Power amplifier, bass 400W, 4 ohm, class D ICEpower

 

Crossover frequency 180/2000 Hz

 

Cabinet principle Closed box

 

Net volume, bass 18 litres

 

Magnetically shielded No. Must be placed > 50cm from picture tube

 

Woofer 10" / 250mm cone

 

 

To me it seems that the addition of the BL2 would (significantly?) extend the system’s bass.

 

 

Or are we discussing value for money ?

 

Yes, there is more oompf but is the addition worth the extra money ?

 

 

Or is the case being made that the extra money returns better value when being spent on a dedicate, tunes, made for purpose centre dedicated speaker ?

 

Going back a few years - actually about 5 and a bit - time flies - when I purchased my new Beolab 9's and the V1-40 TV, I was astonished, but also a little concerned about the very prodigious bass the Beolab 9's are capable of on movie LFE, such that I was concerned about potential over driving and damage on such heavy bass to the Lab 9's bass drivers.

Consequently I enquired here about the functioning of the ABL circuit, to which Geoff Martin very kindly responded.

Between the BL2 and the BL9 as regards bass, as I best recall, he stated at the time that one BL 9 was broadly equal to a BL 2 - but  that the BL 2 could play a little lower and louder in the bass than the BL9; however with the BL 9 there are two of them...as against one BL2 typically in an AV setup.

I also notice in the setup configuration table in the AV processor manual for the V1-40, that in connecting an BL2, no bass will be sent to it from the BL9's in the standard configuration setup.

In fact, the only speaker that you can connect in respect to standard configuration which will result in bass being redirected from the BL 9, would be a Beolab 5, or of course the later BL50 or 90.  

From this one would assume that as the principlel of bass redirection is to divert system bass and LFE to the most capable speakers in the system, is that the processing table 'knows' that the Bass from a pair of BL 9's is 'sufficient' such as to obviate need for redirection to a BL2.

Of course you can play with the settings to make this happen, but otherwise the standard B&O configuration is as described above re BL9's and BL2 with a B&O TV/processor.

I have heard better bass than my BL9s in an AV setup, as in better able to play to true infrasonic frequencies, and at near Dolby reference levels with it - however, to better the BL9s, IMO one is talking either the newer Beolab 20's, the previous  BL5's, the newer BL50's or BL90's, OR purchase a dedicated high performance sub such as the SVS, JL Audio Fathom, Velodyne, and M&K models I've heard, - but for which we're also talking a significant price to get that performance - i.e. A$7,000 and up - or nearly half the price of say a set of Beolab 20s.

The subs I've mentioned and heard are phenomenal performers when we're talking their top of the range models; but then so are the Beolab speakers, and I know which I'd prefer as an overall purchase to live with in the home and for ease of setup and integration, from both an performance and aesthetic point of view.

Best regards

John.. 

 

John wrote:

I have heard better bass than my BL9s in an AV setup, as in better able to play to true infrasonic frequencies, and at near Dolby reference levels with it - however, to better the BL9s, IMO one is talking either the newer Beolab 20's, the previous  BL5's, the newer BL50's or BL90's, OR purchase a dedicated high performance sub such as the SVS, JL Audio Fathom, Velodyne, and M&K models I've heard, - but for which we're also talking a significant price to get that performance - i.e. A$7,000 and up - or nearly half the price of say a set of Beolab 20s.

Thank you for those thoughts (and memories, I know recall Geoff’s response).

I have been hankering after attaching my BL20s to my next television, moving the BL3s to the Rear, keeping the BL19 where it is (near the front), and moving the BL4s to the ceiling.

Thus creating a 9.1 system (if I can get away with it when we remodel the family room 😁).

Do you think that’s a good set up ?

Or should I move the BL19 more to the rear as the BL20s will provide enough subwoofering themselves (and I know subwoofer bass is nondirectional) ?

Interested in your, and all others’, thoughts.

I wanted to pose this though...

In regards to us saying the BL9 (or such speaker) “can reproduce better bass since there are two woofers, against 1”, let’s remember, the BL9s (or such speaker) set to front left and front right, is only producing bass for those channels.

AV systems send bass, or more specifically, LFEs to a BL2 (or any subwoofer) for ALL channels. So if you have a guy with a deep voice speaking, his lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the CENTER channel, if there is a large spaceship flying overhead, the lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the REAR or SURROUND channels etc.

So I’m not sure if assuming not having a BL2, simply because one has a set of BL9s, is having a better setup, since BL9s will only be playing bass from their own channel, and not necessarily stepping in to aid other channels such as surround, or surround rears.

Am I off “bass” here? 😁

Howzit wrote:

I wanted to pose this though...

 

 

In regards to us saying the BL9 (or such speaker) “can reproduce better bass since there are two woofers, against 1”, let’s remember, the BL9s (or such speaker) set to front left and front right, is only producing bass for those channels.

 

AV systems send bass, or more specifically, LFEs to a BL2 (or any subwoofer) for ALL channels. So if you have a guy with a deep voice speaking, his lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the CENTER channel, if there is a large spaceship flying overhead, the lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the REAR or SURROUND channels etc.

 

So I’m not sure if assuming not having a BL2, simply because one has a set of BL9s, is having a better setup, since BL9s will only be playing bass from their own channel, and not necessarily stepping in to aid other channels such as surround, or surround rears.

 

Am I off “bass” here? 😁

I’d say yes you are - if we consider the AV solution, that B&O offers.

Have a look here

link

and here for deeper insight:

Howzit wrote:

I wanted to pose this though...

In regards to us saying the BL9 (or such speaker) “can reproduce better bass since there are two woofers, against 1”, let’s remember, the BL9s (or such speaker) set to front left and front right, is only producing bass for those channels.

AV systems send bass, or more specifically, LFEs to a BL2 (or any subwoofer) for ALL channels. So if you have a guy with a deep voice speaking, his lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the CENTER channel, if there is a large spaceship flying overhead, the lower tones will be sent to the BL2 from the REAR or SURROUND channels etc.

So I’m not sure if assuming not having a BL2, simply because one has a set of BL9s, is having a better setup, since BL9s will only be playing bass from their own channel, and not necessarily stepping in to aid other channels such as surround, or surround rears.

 

Am I off “bass” here? 😁

I’d say yes you are - if we consider the AV solution, that B&O offers.

Have a look here

link

and here for deeper insight:

https://www.bang-olufsen.com/~/mediaV3/Files/user-guides/Technical-sound-guide/Technical-Sound-Guide-1701.pdf

 

What we are aiming at here is the function called ‘bass redirection’

The AV processor in the BSys4-based products has a socalled 2 channel bass management

and is able to redirect bass to and from any loudspeaker in the setup.

This of course has to be meaningfull - thus the default values that you can find in the table displayed there.

However you can tweak to whatever you want and how you want - in the advanced settings.

Trying things out is better than just talking about them!

 

For other AV processors with just basic setup possibilities this might be different.

Bas is the most difficult part of a sound signal to control.

For the guys in Struer is was important that their AV processor knows the exact values of the speakers connected to the setup.....

.....including the center channel.

 

MM

 

I made a somewhat longer post - but that went straight into moderation....for whatever reason???

We’ll see if it turnes up here at some point.

May basic answer is - yes, you are of bass ——- at least when it comes to a modern (BSys4-based) AV processor.

MM

Temporarily using a pair of Beolab 8000 for center speaker. I also have a pair of Beolab 6000 ill try out. These, as a reminder, are currently paired up to a set of Beolab 9 for LEFT and RIGHT channels up front.

Really waiting to conclude what center channel to ultimately end up with. The 7.4 is sounding like the right choice... however the madness of having a pair of BL8000 is a fun try out right now.

It seems to me that the Beolab 7.4 is pretty much the Beolab 3. Same driver size, same tweeter size, both have ALT, and both have the same amplifier rating. For all intensive purposes it looks like the same speaker in a different cabinet... is this true? If it is, aesthetically, the Beolab 3 would fit the bill better for me... any thoughts on this?

A little update....

Iv been using a pair of Beolab 8000s as a Centre channel, running through a Beolab 2.

This is set as a “Large” speaker in the AV processor setup... effectively being seen as a full range speaker as far as the processor is concerned. The BL2 is using its internal crossover between itself and the BL8000, so hopefully that’s as good as B&O designed it to be.

This of course is making for an excellent center channel, essentially 5 drivers and 2 tweeters. The only drawback being that the BL2 is on one side to the left, as I cannot place it in the middle on the floor in front of the TV.

I am then using an auto calibration PEQ, that is using the Beolab 9 L/R channel speakers as a reference. I then went in for some manual PEQ’ing; lifting frequencies in the 4K range to help with upper frequency dialogue crispness, and the 8k range to help match the BL9s. I’m also lifting this “center channel” by 2dB relative to the rest of the speakers. These settings are using the auto calibration as a jumping off point.

The rest of the setup are the BL9s for Front L/R channels as I mentioned, set to “Large”, and another pair of BL8000s for Surround L/R channels, set to “Small”, and a B&W 8” subwoofer for LFE.

This is sounding really good so far.

When watching 5.1/7.1 movies and TV shows, it sounds exactly like what it should, but with dialogue better than any system I have ever heard. My wife and I sometimes have a hard time with muffled, deep, low volume vocals... but not any more!!

However, when watching older material that was never created in 5.1, the decoder does a good job of up-mixing, but as you can imagine, it’s not perfect.

When watching older shows like the first season of Midsomer Murders for example, almost 90% of all audio goes to the center channel. Only very light distant bird sounds, or fire crackling in the background is sent to any other speakers, as the decoder tries it’s best to do what it can with older, stereo mixes. Even new movies like Marvel’s Thor, has a large number of sequences sending most of the audio to just the center channel. Admittedly, these are usually close up to medium-wide dialogue scenes, or scenes in close quarters. The scenes where you obviously start to get full surround sounds are scenes where things are flying around and so forth. As such, dramas feature most scenes being run to mostly the center channel I have noticed.

So all in all, I’m very happy with this setup so far. I have gone and put my ear right onto the speaker frets to listen during various content, and sadly, most audio is indeed sent to the center channel relative to other channels. I’m not talking about audio volume level, but actual content sent to the speakers themselves. Sure, the stereo panning left to right sounds very good indeed.

I will try using the BL9s as a center channel, as for now, it would seem to me, that this is where I would get the most use out of them. They currently run mostly idle, or just playing very faint ambient sounds to create scene enveloping... and at the most for vocals, mirroring 30% of the dialogue off the center channel. Most of their heavy lifting is just superficial SFX and music scores, while most of the real meat and potatoes of scenes is in the center. They do get loud occasionally in action movies when a dragon or spaceship swoops by from far left to far right or something, but I didn’t drop all that money for the occasional dragon fly-over.

I’ll give it a go and see what happens.

Music of course is the opposite. I just play it as either 2 channels, or 11 channels, and the receiver uses the BL9s as the main speakers.

It’s been fun learning all about this stuff, and perhaps I’ll just ultimately go back to a BL7-4 center 😛😉🙂

Amazing

Thanks for sharing !

I am not sure I would have your dedication and perseverance

Nonetheless a great job by you and so thank you

Perhaps others can follow up with their own experiences and experiments

That would be fascinating

Howzit wrote:

A little update....

Iv been using a pair of Beolab 8000s as a Centre channel, running through a Beolab 2.

That’s a lot of ‘stuff’ for a center channel.

The 8000’s must be in the way, when the screen is on - or are they placed horizontically under the screen?

MM