Interesting links indeed!!
There can't be another industry filled with as much bullS*it as the HiFi/HighEnd industry....?
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Beosound 8 review
39 replies
Great thread. A review of a review.
Timing refers to the transient response of a speaker, plus it's decay slope at various frequencies/waterfall plots.
Alex, you are a knowledgeable and very likeable member of Beoworld, so I do not wish to be unfairly critical of your viewpoints, however as a recovering audiophile of the Naim faith, I have to opinion that others views here of the Audiophile subjective terminology and viewpoint being mostly BS is pretty much on the mark really.
To a Naim believer, timing is all about PRaT aka Pace, Rythmn and Timing. Apparently whilst this 'phenomena' (LOL....) does exist in music, only flat earth systems can do full justice to it, instantly rendering them the most musical systems on earth so the flat earth Naim devotees would have us believe. "You're nobody without a Naim" don't you know, as the advertising slogan goes.
As a trained musician in piano, trumpet and voice, I can assure you this flat earth/Naim mantra is BS of the highest order and typical of Audiophool utter nonsense spouted by fervent fanboys who lack any sort of tertiary training or qualifications, touting subjective pseudo science as objective fact.
For the record, burn in is definitely not a myth! We've just got a new pair of Focal Twins in the studio as midfields, and being the person who set them up, and used them over the last week or two, they have definitely changed quite significantly, even people that didn't hear them that much have commented.
Well unfortunately again, science pretty much comes down on the side of expectation bias and psychoacoustics re the way we hear and the fallibility of our audio memory here as being the actual causation of the results you report, rather than any change beyond a nominal one at best, occurring in the loudspeaker per se. Not that is impossible for the speaker sound to change slightly from new as regards temperature and mechanical effects, but these are likely to be significant over only a few hours it would appear from manufacturers who have investigated such issues.
From the owners manual of a pair of B&W 683's
"Running-in Period
The performance of the speaker will change subtly during the initial listening period. If the speaker has been stored in a cold environment, the damping compounds and suspension materials of the drive units will take some time to recover their correct mechanical properties. The drive unit suspensions will also loosen up during the first hours of use. The time taken for the speaker to achieve its intended performance will vary depending on previous storage conditions and how it is used. As a guide, allow up to a week for the temperature effects to stabilise and 15 hours of average use for the mechanical parts to attain their intended design characteristics.
However, longer run-in periods (as long as a month) have been reported and there is evidence to suggest that this has little to do with the speaker changing and more to do with the listener getting used to the new sound. This is especially so with highly revealing speakers such as these where there may be a significant increase in the amount of detail compared with what the listener has previously been used to; the sound may at first appear too “up front” and perhaps a little hard. After an extended period of time the sound will seem to mellow, but without losing clarity and detail."
So, yes, there may be some initial change, dependant upon storage conditions according to B&W, but not the protracted and 'night and day' differences that audiophiles commonly claim. I'd suggest these sorts of claims have more to do with psychoacoustics and psychology generally rather than any 'night and day' difference occurring in the sound of the speaker due to and slight mechanical or thermal changes.
HTH
With respect and Best Wishes
John.... 😐
Well said, John 😎
Agreed that it's a load of nonsense when it comes to cables, CD players and other electronics, but I completely disagree with you when it comes to speakers! I've heard it, I know it in side-by-side comparisons, it is definitely there.Yes, and despite remembering what you hear is ridiculously difficult and fickle, you claim that not only can you hear a difference, but people who have heard them only shortly, can come back and they to hear a difference.
Seriously, that's utter bollocks no matter which way you look at it. Our hearing, and especially our memory of it are extremely fickle and imprecise.
Steady on, not quite sure what I said to wind you up. "utter bollocks" is 1) mildly offensive and 2) a bit extreme IMHO.
As it happens, there are measurable differences in the TS parameters between drivers pre and post burn in. link . Now just how much this affects the real-world performance of the speaker is up for debate. Most of the tests I've seen orientate around sealed speaker enclosures, which will show less variation in performance than say, a sealed or transmission line box as the Fs of the driver changes. I also haven't yet seen a single test which measures a speaker's performance in the time domain, only with a solid sine-wave. Start passing time-dependant signals with variations in frequency and amplitude in similar tests, and I'd put money on a speaker's step response changing throughout the 'burn in period'.
For everybody that says it's 'utter bollocks', there is somebody else who says it isn't, and data to back up both sides. Dynaudio for instance insist that all of their speakers should be allowed to burn-in before they perform correctly.
Even if you don't want to accept that it's a physical change in the speaker itself, then the argument that it's all down to the reviewer's ears is just as valid. We don't buy speakers because they measure properly, we buy them because of how we perceive their sound, and if we need a period of 'burn-in' to get used to the sound of the speaker, then let it be.
If it really bothers you that some people might think there is such a thing as driver burn in, then just ignore it.
The WhatHifi review is re-printed in
Steady on, not quite sure what I said to wind you up. "utter bollocks" is 1) mildly offensive and 2) a bit extreme IMHO.
Too bad. It's still utter bollocks.
As it happens, there are measurable differences in the TS parameters between drivers pre and post burn in. link . Now just how much this affects the real-world performance of the speaker is up for debate.
Yes, on one side we have the audiophilic group who claims that not only can they tell a difference, and that a burn-in time of a fortnight is necessary, but some of them also claim that people who had only listened to the speakers for a very short while can instantly tell a difference when they come to the house. You know, the sort of bollocks that has no attachment to reality.
On the other side, we have reality.
Most of the tests I've seen orientate around sealed speaker enclosures, which will show less variation in performance than say, a sealed or transmission line box as the Fs of the driver changes. I also haven't yet seen a single test which measures a speaker's performance in the time domain, only with a solid sine-wave. Start passing time-dependant signals with variations in frequency and amplitude in similar tests, and I'd put money on a speaker's step response changing throughout the 'burn in period'.
Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.
You once again speak of timing. Are you sure you're not one of those people who thinks jitter is a real issue these days too?
For everybody that says it's 'utter bollocks', there is somebody else who says it isn't, and data to back up both sides.
No, there's not data to back up both sides. Your argument is akin to claiming that there is data to backup both evolution and that of young earth creationists. It just doesn't work that way.
Dynaudio for instance insist that all of their speakers should be allowed to burn-in before they perform correctly.
Noone I know who works professionaly with audio production have their speakers, their cables, their amps or anything "burn in". They play them a lot before putting them to use, but that is so they can get used to the particular shortfalls of that particular equipment.
Even if you don't want to accept that it's a physical change in the speaker itself, then the argument that it's all down to the reviewer's ears is just as valid.
What? You're arguing that completely subjective notions is equally as valid as facts? You have got to be kidding me.
We don't buy speakers because they measure properly, we buy them because of how we perceive their sound, and if we need a period of 'burn-in' to get used to the sound of the speaker, then let it be.
What a load of crock. I buy speakers because they measure properly, because when they measure properly, they are the most accurate. If not, I'd still be using valve amps, passive speakers, turntables and reel-to-reel recorders.
I don't use any of the above since I want the most accurate reproduction.
If it really bothers you that some people might think there is such a thing as driver burn in, then just ignore it.
What a cop-out. Just because your subjective notions are countered is no reason for you to play a victim. You're posting those notions on a forum, not a blog, so expect to be countered if someone disagrees with you. To play the card, that I should ignore something that isn't true, merely because you don't want to be countered is ridiculous.
Most of the tests I've seen orientate around sealed speaker enclosures, which will show less variation in performance than say, a sealed or transmission line box as the Fs of the driver changes. I also haven't yet seen a single test which measures a speaker's performance in the time domain, only with a solid sine-wave. Start passing time-dependant signals with variations in frequency and amplitude in similar tests, and I'd put money on a speaker's step response changing throughout the 'burn in period'.You once again speak of timing. Are you sure you're not one of those people who thinks jitter is a real issue these days too?
Actually he isn't speaking of "timing" in the sense of the original review, but of time domain response rather than frequency domain or spectral response, which is a perfectly valid comment. A time domain plot to a step or impulse response is a valid test that will display the units damping amonst other things.
Alex,
Don't waste your breath. "Electrified" seems to know a fair bit - which, humorously enough, no one is arguing, despite the fact that his replies are always mega-defensive, even when there's nothing to defend. But on the occasion he is wrong, God himself could come down and let him know about it, and this guy would have the stupidity and audacity to argue with the Almighty.
Anyway, there were alot of audiophile garbage words thrown around in that review - just chalk it up to the author's ignorance. But yes, the T/S parameters of a driver do indeed change after the suspension has been well-flexed for awhile. Even he admits it:
Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.
Don't worry about it. It's him, not you. The bad attitude, I mean. Take care!😁
Jon
Don't waste your breath. "Electrified" seems to know a fair bit - which, humorously enough, no one is arguing, despite the fact that his replies are always mega-defensive, even when there's nothing to defend. But on the occasion he is wrong, God himself could come down and let him know about it, and this guy would have the stupidity and audacity to argue with the Almighty.
Hmm.
I like to put together a real argument with premises and everything. I think this must be the first time ever that I've been accused of being "defensive". That's a novel idea.
Anyway, there were alot of audiophile garbage words thrown around in that review - just chalk it up to the author's ignorance. But yes, the T/S parameters of a driver do indeed change after the suspension has been well-flexed for awhile. Even he admits it:
Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.
Yup.
But burn-ins of a fortnight or more and so obvious that people who have heard them just shortly can tell instantly when they hear them again? Nonsense.
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