symmes wrote:

@John.  Great summary and question.  The answer is Asian.  RR is German, and they were smart not to call it a 9-Series.  Pull the German bits out and you have a couch.  So is Mini.  Chrysler is Italian.  

I am impressed with the fortitude and intelligence behind so many of the postings, and have learned a lot, little of which matters.  Having been bought and sold in corporations a scary number of times, I am comfortable, though not necessarily always happy, saying that ownership is everything.  It is painful to have your culture ripped out from under you, but that doesn't change the reality of the business dynamics.

People can argue their points until they turn blue.  Doesn't change anything.  Some people need to meet a few REAL Mergers & Acquisition guys.  Scary smart and (and callous) dudes (and dudettes).  Reality bites.  

B&O Play STRATEGY is a winner.  Sorry to disappoint the haters.

 

This is complete rubbish.

I could engage in a lengthy argument with you and completely disprove and take apart everything you've said....

....but I really cant be ars*d due to the fact that my time and effort is better used elsewhere.

@bentleyman. It would be just like dkatz' and tod/paul's arguments. Conceptual fluff. Save your breath. 

burantek wrote:

symmes wrote:

@John.  Great summary and question.  The answer is Asian.  RR is German, and they were smart not to call it a 9-Series.  Pull the German bits out and you have a couch.  So is Mini.  Chrysler is Italian.  

I am impressed with the fortitude and intelligence behind so many of the postings, and have learned a lot, little of which matters.  Having been bought and sold in corporations a scary number of times, I am comfortable, though not necessarily always happy, saying that ownership is everything.  It is painful to have your culture ripped out from under you, but that doesn't change the reality of the business dynamics.

People can argue their points until they turn blue.  Doesn't change anything.  Some people need to meet a few REAL Mergers & Acquisition guys.  Scary smart and (and callous) dudes (and dudettes).  Reality bites.  

B&O Play STRATEGY is a winner.  Sorry to disappoint the haters.

Thank you!

Is this a joke or what?

Is 'The Sun' tabloid newspaper australian because it's owned by Murdoch....?

Or is it an American publication due to the fact that it's owned by News corp based in the US?

Or is it a British tabloid newspaper....?

According to your idea, it's either Australian or American due to either the country of birth of it's controlling shareholder, or due to where News Corp has it's base for corporate/taxation reasons....

Obviously it's neither. It's a british tabloid newspaper as anyone will tell you.

Your point doesn't stand up.

Case closed.

I would prefer to limit the discussion to B&O who are a Danish owned company with premises in Denmark and Czech and who outsource production of some lower priced items to Chinese third parties. They have recently suffered some financial difficulties and undergone some restructuring to try and improve the operating margin such that they actually begin to make a profit.

Should they produce the outsourced product in Europe and increase the price to maintain the margin or are you happy that they achieve this margin by manufacturing in a low cost region and charge the current price? (Of course the great unknown is how much the price would have to increase for a European version of, say, the BS8 to maintain the necessary margin).

I have assumed that, because of the financial situation, reducing margin is not an option.

All other comments about all other companies are superfluous and in no way help answer the question..

How british is a car whose engine and body is made in Bavaria (Phantom)? Not to mention electronics and parts from suppliers from all over...

Puncher wrote:

I would prefer to limit the discussion to B&O who are a Danish owned company with premises in Denmark and Czech and who outsource production of some lower priced items to Chinese third parties. They have recently suffered some financial difficulties and undergone some restructuring to try and improve the operating margin such that they actually begin to make a profit.

Should they produce the outsourced product in Europe and increase the price to maintain the margin or are you happy that they achieve this margin by manufacturing in a low cost region and charge the current price? (Of course the great unknown is how much the price would have to increase for a European version of, say, the BS8 to maintain the necessary margin).

I have assumed that, because of the financial situation, reducing margin is not an option.

 

All other comments about all other companies are superfluous.

Yes I agree Punch,

In answer to your posed question, if things stay as they are i.e. Danish owned company with premises in Denmark/Czech who outsource a few lower end products to China I think thats fine and acceptable.

As long as they dont decide to outsource more and more of production over time, and essentially become a 'Made in China' company. This would be a terrible shame imo.

The fact that sites like this exist in the first place, with passionate followers of the brand is due, in large part, to the history and historical image of the brand. If B&O decided to shift production totally to 'Made in China' that image/exclusivity and brand loyalty of many B&O customers will no doubt be damaged irreversably, and a company the size of B&O could not possibly compete in the mid-market electronics industry (there's way too many much much larger players in the middle ground stakes) B&O would simply get swallowed up by a larger player and that would essentially be bye bye Bang & Olufsen, in all but name probably.

The fact that sites like beoworld and to a lesser degree beocentral exist is testiment itself to the great brand image B&O have fostered and earned/credited with in it's 87 years of history. I doubt very much that say, Toshiba, or Aiwa, or JVC have dedicated discussion forum sites like we do here.. The reason is B&O is a special brand. Lets keep in that way.

Agreed?

raveny wrote:

How british is a car whose engine and body is made in Bavaria (Phantom)? Not to mention electronics and parts from suppliers from all over...

Rolls-Royce Phantom VII, 2003 to present

Not officially a Phantom VII, but this first generation of Rolls-Royce with BMW ownership is often known by this moniker. With an all aluminium chassis and rear hinged doors like the Phantom VI it is instantly recognisable as a Rolls-Royce. The engine and body are made in Germany, but the final assembly is undertaken at Rolls-Royce's new Goodwood facility. BMW have set a lifetime limit of 10000 Phantoms, and in March 2007 the 3000th Phantom rolled out of Goodwood.

In the modern age, this is the best we could have hoped for. Despite German ownership, BMW are making considerable efforts to keeping Rolls-Royce a british product. I respect BMW for this and it shows that even a huge german multi national have recognised the importance of maintaining the image and exclusivity (and are respecting the English heritage as much as one could hope for) of the marque. If it was ALL about profits alone, they could shift production to a much cheaper place, not set any production limits, perhaps introduce a RR'Play' range of more affordable cars for the 'masses'.....

But they are not doing that......ask yourself why.. 

"B&O Play strategy a winner."

That remain to be seen.  I would suggest that over the long term it is a loser, but in the short term may make some money.  Its a bad move to use the B&O name in the brand.  It suggests that the product is of the quality of Bang & Olufsen, when it is not.  Rolex does not have the Rolex name in Tudor, why because not not a Rolex, although Tudor is a good watch and made in the same plant.

China can make some great products.  But there products are mainly throw away products.  iPod $150, when it breaks cost more to repair, it hits the trash pile.  Computers, are outdated as fast as they are made, it breaks buy new and upgrade.  $1000 TV brakes outside of warrenty period, most folks would also move it to the junk pile, as they can buy new of just a little over the repair.  $10,000 TV you get repaired.

When this China stuff starts to break and it will, as everything breaks. With a larger sales volume of the lower priced items more breaks will occur this is going to give the nameplate Bang & Olufsen a bad name as over-priced junk and once that happens the only B&O market will be on Ebay.

By the way, what is my Designed in France, Made in Peru LaCoste Shirt?

And personally I do not like that they are made in Peru.  Why because I paid a premium to have a shirt made in France.  Did the price of the shirt go down when production moved to Peru.  Of course not.  The only thing that happended is the margin want up for LaCoste,  and I am sure some CEO is making a nice bonus for that.

I cannot speak for how B&O sells in the rest of the world, but at least in the USA they need to change there sales model back to pre B2B.  We went from 2 stores in my city selling B&O to Zero. (I live in a city with 1.3 Million).  The closest B&O B2B store was 70 Miles a way and its now closed.  That makes the closest store 200 miles away.  Not actually the way to sell product.  If B&O does read this you need to go back to B&O shops inside other store and get better market spread.  I am not driving 200 miles just to get product. 

Bypahtec – B&O has already outsourced its entry level products to china. So it HAS happened... unlike in the case of Lotus being bought out by a Chinese company which hasn't happened.

Bayerische – Right now they don't, if they do in the future, then I will not be buying Nokia anymore.

Puncher – It's not about “owning the building” it's about having your own manufacturing plant. That in essence technically disqualifies it from being considered outsourced. My point as I have mentioned in the previous posts is that when you have your own factory, your own workers that you trained yourself (whatever the length of time you spent training them) on your own product line. Then they will be much better at making that product. This is my opinion but this explains why most high end, high quality and professional manufacturers do not outsource.

They would definitely be more “real” B&O as B&O would actually be producing it, not the Chinese company that produces it FOR B&O right now... Producing something means manufacturing it, and if your company is not manufacturing it then you are not producing it, someone is producing it for you! Designing and sending spec sheets is just that and no more, you leave the rest up to a different company that you put 100% trust in and hope that they have similar standards, ideals, etc...

The reason it's “OK” to produce anywhere in the EU is because you have EU labour laws and EU wages which are fair for each region or country. If B&O opens their own factory in China, pays fair wages to their employees with benefits and fair working hours, etc... Then I will definitely respect them more, however at that point they would be stupid to spend all that money investing in another country whose future is uncertain. Much safer to just invest in Czech or anywhere in the EU where you have their protection. I think it would be too costly to relocate and pretty pointless just to save a few dollars an hour but with many additional risks compared to the safety of just manufacturing in Czech for five times less than Struer.

Symmes – Thanks for your encouragement! Having received my Masters a year ago I've always wanted to do a PHD but have to support my mother, pay off student loans and pursue my career dreams for now. Perhaps one day I will become a professor or perhaps a CEO of a company if I get an MBA instead and pursue that path... Check out Riccar (that went back to manufacturing in the US after outsourcing), American Apparell and other companies I mentioned that decided to manufacturer in the US or their own countries ;-)... There are many company CEOs who share my views from small to big!

Puncher – It's been a tough time for many companies since the financial crisis and all companies have their ups and downs. Some choose to outsource and create lower end goods in order to gain a hefty profit, others choose to weather the storm and perhaps produce in Czech with a lower margin but still a decent one considering they would sell just as many units. Again the success in number of sales for the BS8 and Beolit 12 has been exactly the iPod integration and sales in Apple stores, not the fact that they outsourced. Granted they would have made a lower profit margin producing it in Czech, they still would have made enough profit to survive. I think a lot of it has to do with Tue's decision, perhaps there were people in B&O who fought against his decision, we don't know. Another factor is worrying about upping share prices so they must have been considering a higher profit for this as well...

Bentleyman – Although I still feel that B&O could have produced the BS8 and Beolit12 in Czech at a lower profit margin and still made some money. I agree with everything else you said. For me this move alone still damages B&Os reputation, although far from completely. 

Wesheltonj – Couldn't agree with you more! You seem to summarise many of my points better than I do.

I know I said I wouldn't repost in this thread, but I just want to be clear that I only have one username and one account.

I do not post under another name.