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I wish some of you guys will please stop talking about the BS8 is some kind of bargain, you are just encouraging B&O. There are so many better systems out there in terms of performance and build quality and a third of the price. This product is pure fake and total rubbish. Sorry guys, you are stuck in your own little B&O world! You are very very silly if you think this system performs well. It's a disgrace!
LOL 😁
Yeah, we know your opinion, Tod.
Dkatz,
Regarding movies on demand. This works for sure excellently from many vendors in the US, but try to access these with an IP address coming from outside the US.
There's a world outside the US, and it is HUGE. Bigger than Texas. 😁
Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No. Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.
If it were made to the exact same standard with the exact same materials and it was exactly the same, why would it matter where it was made? I don't see the difference being made in China as opposed to being made in Czechoslovakia..
Geography Police here, Czechoslovakia has never manufactured B&O, as it was split in 1992.
To be honest much of Apples technology has come from someone else. An example is that the Tablet PC was introduced by Bill Gates in 2002 and Steve Jobs only introduced the iPad in 2010, nobody cared about the Tablet PC yet everyone started going crazy over the iPad. In essence Apple only improved and made things more user friendly, not necessarily invented them.That is exactly the point IMHO. Innovation is not only about inventing new technology but also about making the technology acceptable and even the marketing of it. Without those you're lost.
Yup, right on. I don't think Bill Gates did invent the tablet. There's been tablet computers in Sci-Fi.
What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.
Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No. Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.
If it were made to the exact same standard with the exact same materials and it was exactly the same, why would it matter where it was made? I don't see the difference being made in China as opposed to being made in Czechoslovakia..
Geography Police here, Czechoslovakia has never manufactured B&O, as it was split in 1992.
consider it a 'typo'...
What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.
I'm not sure I know what good a tablet is in 2012 😁
Ages ago, I had an NCR 3125 tablet that came out in 1992 or so (no, I didn't spend any good money on it). It ran Windows for Pen Computing, a special version of Win 3.11 that was adapted for using a stylus and included surprisingly well working handwriting recognition. Operating times etc. were just about similar to any laptop of the time. The concept didn't catch on.
Jonathan – I actually know a lot about manufacturing both in China and many other countries. As mentioned I visited dozens of factories and workshops in the past few years, I wrote my dissertation on the topic and did a years of research on it and I have many friends and acquaintances that have their own factories and manufacture their own products in various countries from Japan to Europe to America. I also have a friend in China (used to be my flatmate) who is part owner of a factory that produces clothing for brands like H&M. He himself admits that the quality is not that great, but says that it is improving and in the future China will be producing to the same standards as many European made products.
I have yet to see anything that is being produced out of China that's better than a similar product I have seen in the Europe, Japan or the US. How can you tell me that I should be buying more Chinese goods? I can buy goods from any country I wish. It's my choice as a consumer!
I never said that China should suddenly up its salaries 10 times overnight and to assume that workers will only come in one day because they get a weeks salary in a day is just plain stupid. That would only be if they wanted to stay in the same poverty they are in now and highly unlikely. I think that the people working in China's factories are hard workers, and if you increase their salaries and decrease their work hours, they would only be happier and possibly produce even better quality goods without the spates of suicides.
If we all stop buying goods made by western companies in China, perhaps China will begin to develop their own industries through internationally competitive companies and PROTECTIONISM as Korea and Japan had with their own companies (Samsung, LG, Kia, Hyundai, etc... for Korea and Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc... for Japan for example). If you knew about how nearly all countries in the world developed, well they didn't develop through what China is developing, it was through protectionism and creating their own companies whilst pretty much limited import of foreign products until their own became internationally competitive.
And what about the 10s of millions of manufacturing jobs that have been lost in the US alone in the past 20 years because of outsourcing to developing countries like China? Should I be more concerned with my own people (many of which are unemployed and also living in poverty) or with people in other countries? Maybe I should be supporting the rich factory owners who make millions in China from paying their employees almost nothing? And perhaps I should support the CEOs of these US companies that became billionaires thanks to laying all their manufacturing employees off and moving production to China?
China is already the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily and economically. But who cares? They have the biggest separation between rich and poor, they have one of the lowest human development indexes, one of the highest rates of poverty in the world. Supporting the system that's in place is only fueling this even bigger. The separation between rich and poor in China is MUCH bigger now than it was in the 1970s even. The almost non existent middle class in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing makes up an extremely small amount of the total population. The wage rises of a 10-20 cents per year is also laughable because that hardly accounts for inflation and it would take China hundreds of years to reach the west at this rate, and they wouldn't anyways considering the wages are rising nearly everywhere in the world and in many countries at a much higher pace than China's. In fact China keeps its wages low on purpose in order for companies to stay there and not go to another developing country! It's a viscious cycle that is not economically viable in the long term for China.
I respect that there are different cultures in the world, and I know about many of them. However, I think Muslims choosing not to drink alcohol or Jews not to eat Pork is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing, that has to do with religion. According to your statement, Poverty is an inherent cultural aspect of Chinese culture? In fact many rich Chinese do buy $1000 clothing items and drive Rolls Royces, nearly all the Chinese millionaires do and we've been discussing how these products are exactly aimed at the Noveau-Riche in China. Given the choice they would want all those things.
You are saying that the Chinese way of life is employers paying measly wages to their employees whilst getting rich off of them working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That I should respect this insanely huge separation between rich and poor, and the fact that 1% of the population is rich and 99% are poor. That I should respect that this 99% want to live in these conditions and that it's Chinese culture. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. It is exactly because of this that I don't want to support it. I don't think I will solve China's problems as you say, but I would prefer not to support such a system, just as I would prefer not to support a dictator in some country that condemns its people to poverty. Every country can change, it's like saying that you should support America's Southern culture in the early days of Slavery, because that was the culture of the south. Should we still have slavery to revive that culture?
I NEVER said that B&O should open their factory in China and get them to go through an apprenticeship scheme. I said that if B&O wanted the same quality as they have in their European factories they would have to have their own and train their workers accordingly and give them the same conditions. This is my opinion and I don't think that this should happen. This will never happen because once you price things out, it won't even be worth the move to China in that case, they might as well manufacture in Czech.
I singled out China as a country because it is the country where B&O outsourced! I have many grounds from abstaining from buying Chinese products as I mentioned before. How can you make me buy anything I don't want to buy? If I was really racist then I wouldn't want a better life for Chinese people or people in all developing countries (I am from a developing country myself in fact, Azerbaijan. This is about all developing countries, not just China, but we are using China as an example because that is where B&O is producing their entry level products).
Most of what people have said has been based on opinion and not evidence. Quality is very subjective and to me, as mentioned I have yet to see anything of Chinese quality that is better than the best of European, Japanese or US. I have listed dozens of products, companies that are the best at what they do, that do not outsource. Many of your arguments lack reality and many on the forum have also proven your statements to be wrong.
Can you answer me a simple question? If China is better at manufacturing than the west. Why is it that nearly every single high end or professional product is NOT manufactured there? Panasonic Toughbook for laptops, nearly all the highest end A/V equipment we mentioned in this post, Louis Vuitton and Hermes leather products, all professional video, film and photo production equipment (Leica, Hasselblad, Nikon D1, Canon 1D, 5D, 60D), etc...? OR even B&Os own mid-upper level products? If China was better than the west and manufacturing cost was so much less, SURELY all these professional and higher end grade products would be manufactured there too.. Or is every company director stupid and you alone are smart?
P.S. Britain has a huge car manufacturing industry for your information. How can you even ask a question of whether it is existent? Even if many companies are foreign owned nearly all British cars are manufactured in Britain. They make some of the worlds best luxury and sports cars: Lotus, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, McLaren to name but a few... TVR went bust a few years ago for your information. I have yet to see anything from China with the offerings that Britain has in terms of car manufacture.
From the fact that you have Made in China in your signature and that you talk so passionately about this. I am willing to assume you are taking this all rather personally. Perhaps you are Chinese yourself, living a nice luxury life in Australia, and manufacture yourself in China? I'm wondering how it would be if the tables were turned and you lived in the Chinese culture you talk about without material things? Perhaps you wouldn't be on this forum defending a $1000 iPod dock or buying B&O products. I doubt you could live that kind of life once you've experienced a different one and I am sure there is a reason you live in Australia and not China.
Joeyboygolf – I am not anti-capitalist. I just prefer social capitalism of the sort that many Scandinavian countries have with social services, etc... I do not live in a tent, and I do not march on anti-anything campaigns. Nobody has paid for my education, in fact I am still paying off my student loans. I doubt that anyone from executive positions at B&O are reading this forum. I never said that what I offered was a solution, I know B&O is making more money now. There are other companies however, that don't only think about profit. If supporting your local community, your workers, caring about your corporate social responsibility, creating higher quality products, all of that is “hippie communist crap” as you would probably put it, then I really don't know what this world has come to.
You sure make a lot of assumptions without actually knowing me. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make me an “idiot.” In that case anyone who has a different opinion from you is an Idiot. So everyone who supports my opinions both in the forum and outside is an idiot? This forum is here for us to express our opinions not to insult other members!
KMA – I would disagree with you in the fact that Quality is the prime reason for their manufacture in Japan and not China. Actually many of the lower end ones are produced in Philippines and Thailand but that's regardless of the point. I have talked to dozens of companies and they all claimed quality and the other reasons I mentioned on the forum such as control over development, etc... The higher end products I mentioned, many of them ARE mass produced on a huge scale, especially the D5 and D60. They could have easily made it in China or other countries in the same factory as their lower end products so it has nothing to due with volume. Perhaps for small A/V manufacturing it does, but China could cater to them if they really wanted it.
Waltoninn – Thanks for your support and backing me up. I have heard a lot about how during the Cultural Revolution many artisans were killed or put in prison. They basically got rid of the whole crafts industry they once had replacing it with mass manufacturing. It is a bit similar to what happened to Russian lacquer-ware quality during the soviet union and many of the silver and gold-ware as well. It's almost like their attention to detail died off. In contrast, Japan has seen a cultural revolution of their own where artisan manufacturing has seen a growth. Look at a high quality Kimono that takes upto a year to make enough fabric for just one! Bespoke shoes that take 6 months to make by hand. Lacquer-ware, the best in the world in fact from Wajima, that takes many years to paint (I have a friend who is a lacquer artist in Japan and I visited his workshop including where they make lacquer necklaces for Tiffany's by hand!).
Tiffany's in fact is a company that refuses to outsource their manufacturing to developing countries. In fact, they even made a pen company that outsourced all their products stay in the US just to manufacture pens for Tiffany's. Their lacquer is the best in the world and comes from Wajima in Japan and is manufactured by artisans that I met and talked to. Their Jewelery comes from workshops in Italy and in the US, etc... There are obviously companies that still care about quality and supporting craftsmen and artisans.
What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.I'm not sure I know what good a tablet is in 2012 😁
I agree, the iPad is hugely inflated. I use it as a remote for iTunes, on the can, and right now since my wife used my Macbook Air as a seat cushion yersterday! 😁
Jonathan – I actually know a lot about manufacturing both in China and many other countries. As mentioned I visited dozens of factories and workshops in the past few years, I wrote my dissertation on the topic and did a years of research on it and I have many friends and acquaintances that have their own factories and manufacture their own products in various countries from Japan to Europe to America. I also have a friend in China (used to be my flatmate) who is part owner of a factory that produces clothing for brands like H&M. He himself admits that the quality is not that great, but says that it is improving and in the future China will be producing to the same standards as many European made products.
I have yet to see anything that is being produced out of China that's better than a similar product I have seen in the Europe, Japan or the US. How can you tell me that I should be buying more Chinese goods? I can buy goods from any country I wish. It's my choice as a consumer!
I never said that China should suddenly up its salaries 10 times overnight and to assume that workers will only come in one day because they get a weeks salary in a day is just plain stupid. That would only be if they wanted to stay in the same poverty they are in now and highly unlikely. I think that the people working in China's factories are hard workers, and if you increase their salaries and decrease their work hours, they would only be happier and possibly produce even better quality goods without the spates of suicides.
If we all stop buying goods made by western companies in China, perhaps China will begin to develop their own industries through internationally competitive companies and PROTECTIONISM as Korea and Japan had with their own companies (Samsung, LG, Kia, Hyundai, etc... for Korea and Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc... for Japan for example). If you knew about how nearly all countries in the world developed, well they didn't develop through what China is developing, it was through protectionism and creating their own companies whilst pretty much limited import of foreign products until their own became internationally competitive.
And what about the 10s of millions of manufacturing jobs that have been lost in the US alone in the past 20 years because of outsourcing to developing countries like China? Should I be more concerned with my own people (many of which are unemployed and also living in poverty) or with people in other countries? Maybe I should be supporting the rich factory owners who make millions in China from paying their employees almost nothing? And perhaps I should support the CEOs of these US companies that became billionaires thanks to laying all their manufacturing employees off and moving production to China?
China is already the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily and economically. But who cares? They have the biggest separation between rich and poor, they have one of the lowest human development indexes, one of the highest rates of poverty in the world. Supporting the system that's in place is only fueling this even bigger. The separation between rich and poor in China is MUCH bigger now than it was in the 1970s even. The almost non existent middle class in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing makes up an extremely small amount of the total population. The wage rises of a 10-20 cents per year is also laughable because that hardly accounts for inflation and it would take China hundreds of years to reach the west at this rate, and they wouldn't anyways considering the wages are rising nearly everywhere in the world and in many countries at a much higher pace than China's. In fact China keeps its wages low on purpose in order for companies to stay there and not go to another developing country! It's a viscious cycle that is not economically viable in the long term for China.
I respect that there are different cultures in the world, and I know about many of them. However, I think Muslims choosing not to drink alcohol or Jews not to eat Pork is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing, that has to do with religion. According to your statement, Poverty is an inherent cultural aspect of Chinese culture? In fact many rich Chinese do buy $1000 clothing items and drive Rolls Royces, nearly all the Chinese millionaires do and we've been discussing how these products are exactly aimed at the Noveau-Riche in China. Given the choice they would want all those things.
You are saying that the Chinese way of life is employers paying measly wages to their employees whilst getting rich off of them working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That I should respect this insanely huge separation between rich and poor, and the fact that 1% of the population is rich and 99% are poor. That I should respect that this 99% want to live in these conditions and that it's Chinese culture. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. It is exactly because of this that I don't want to support it. I don't think I will solve China's problems as you say, but I would prefer not to support such a system, just as I would prefer not to support a dictator in some country that condemns its people to poverty. Every country can change, it's like saying that you should support America's Southern culture in the early days of Slavery, because that was the culture of the south. Should we still have slavery to revive that culture?
I NEVER said that B&O should open their factory in China and get them to go through an apprenticeship scheme. I said that if B&O wanted the same quality as they have in their European factories they would have to have their own and train their workers accordingly and give them the same conditions. This is my opinion and I don't think that this should happen. This will never happen because once you price things out, it won't even be worth the move to China in that case, they might as well manufacture in Czech.
I singled out China as a country because it is the country where B&O outsourced! I have many grounds from abstaining from buying Chinese products as I mentioned before. How can you make me buy anything I don't want to buy? If I was really racist then I wouldn't want a better life for Chinese people or people in all developing countries (I am from a developing country myself in fact, Azerbaijan. This is about all developing countries, not just China, but we are using China as an example because that is where B&O is producing their entry level products).
Most of what people have said has been based on opinion and not evidence. Quality is very subjective and to me, as mentioned I have yet to see anything of Chinese quality that is better than the best of European, Japanese or US. I have listed dozens of products, companies that are the best at what they do, that do not outsource. Many of your arguments lack reality and many on the forum have also proven your statements to be wrong.
Can you answer me a simple question? If China is better at manufacturing than the west. Why is it that nearly every single high end or professional product is NOT manufactured there? Panasonic Toughbook for laptops, nearly all the highest end A/V equipment we mentioned in this post, Louis Vuitton and Hermes leather products, all professional video, film and photo production equipment (Leica, Hasselblad, Nikon D1, Canon 1D, 5D, 60D), etc...? OR even B&Os own mid-upper level products? If China was better than the west and manufacturing cost was so much less, SURELY all these professional and higher end grade products would be manufactured there too.. Or is every company director stupid and you alone are smart?
P.S. Britain has a huge car manufacturing industry for your information. How can you even ask a question of whether it is existent? Even if many companies are foreign owned nearly all British cars are manufactured in Britain. They make some of the worlds best luxury and sports cars: Lotus, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, McLaren to name but a few... TVR went bust a few years ago for your information. I have yet to see anything from China with the offerings that Britain has in terms of car manufacture.
From the fact that you have Made in China in your signature and that you talk so passionately about this. I am willing to assume you are taking this all rather personally. Perhaps you are Chinese yourself, living a nice luxury life in Australia, and manufacture yourself in China? I'm wondering how it would be if the tables were turned and you lived in the Chinese culture you talk about without material things? Perhaps you wouldn't be on this forum defending a $1000 iPod dock or buying B&O products. I doubt you could live that kind of life once you've experienced a different one and I am sure there is a reason you live in Australia and not China.
Joeyboygolf – I am not anti-capitalist. I just prefer social capitalism of the sort that many Scandinavian countries have with social services, etc... I do not live in a tent, and I do not march on anti-anything campaigns. Nobody has paid for my education, in fact I am still paying off my student loans. I doubt that anyone from executive positions at B&O are reading this forum. I never said that what I offered was a solution, I know B&O is making more money now. There are other companies however, that don't only think about profit. If supporting your local community, your workers, caring about your corporate social responsibility, creating higher quality products, all of that is “hippie communist crap” as you would probably put it, then I really don't know what this world has come to.
You sure make a lot of assumptions without actually knowing me. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make me an “idiot.” In that case anyone who has a different opinion from you is an Idiot. So everyone who supports my opinions both in the forum and outside is an idiot? This forum is here for us to express our opinions not to insult other members!
KMA – I would disagree with you in the fact that Quality is the prime reason for their manufacture in Japan and not China. Actually many of the lower end ones are produced in Philippines and Thailand but that's regardless of the point. I have talked to dozens of companies and they all claimed quality and the other reasons I mentioned on the forum such as control over development, etc... The higher end products I mentioned, many of them ARE mass produced on a huge scale, especially the D5 and D60. They could have easily made it in China or other countries in the same factory as their lower end products so it has nothing to due with volume. Perhaps for small A/V manufacturing it does, but China could cater to them if they really wanted it.
Waltoninn – Thanks for your support and backing me up. I have heard a lot about how during the Cultural Revolution many artisans were killed or put in prison. They basically got rid of the whole crafts industry they once had replacing it with mass manufacturing. It is a bit similar to what happened to Russian lacquer-ware quality during the soviet union and many of the silver and gold-ware as well. It's almost like their attention to detail died off. In contrast, Japan has seen a cultural revolution of their own where artisan manufacturing has seen a growth. Look at a high quality Kimono that takes upto a year to make enough fabric for just one! Bespoke shoes that take 6 months to make by hand. Lacquer-ware, the best in the world in fact from Wajima, that takes many years to paint (I have a friend who is a lacquer artist in Japan and I visited his workshop including where they make lacquer necklaces for Tiffany's by hand!).
Tiffany's in fact is a company that refuses to outsource their manufacturing to developing countries. In fact, they even made a pen company that outsourced all their products stay in the US just to manufacture pens for Tiffany's. Their lacquer is the best in the world and comes from Wajima in Japan and is manufactured by artisans that I met and talked to. Their Jewelery comes from workshops in Italy and in the US, etc... There are obviously companies that still care about quality and supporting craftsmen and artisans.
I honestly think your aswers are too short.
Excellent arguement and points made by Dkatz. Im with him all the way.
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