bayerische wrote:

Razlaw wrote:

Flappo wrote:

 

 

 

 

I don't think you can compare a top of the line Avant with DVD? or VCR, surround sound etc to the Sony. Throw in Sonys top of the line Dolby digital amp, top of the line VCR and top of the line 32", and I'm not sure 8500 euro would have been enough. This is how the comparison should be done.

 

I agree.

Mr10Percent – Thank you for your very insightful input. Most companies unfortunately have not decreased prices when they have outsourced so although consumers have demanded cheaper goods they have not necessarily gotten them. The companies that chose not to outsource had to raise their prices to stay competitive. Therefore most products which are made in the UK, US, and Europe are more expensive, whilst many outsourced products from European, American and Japanese companies have practically stayed the same price. The exception being in certain computers and electronics where the prices have decreased due to advances in technology and cheaper ways of manufacturing (For example using CMOS chips in DSLRs instead of CCD).

I think you are quite right in saying that it is our choice but most consumers simply don't care. In fact I am the only person I know of that simply refuses to buy anything that's outsourced to developing countries be it computers, telephones, clothes, electronics, etc... Thankfully we all still have a choice as there's always an option to buy something that's made in a developed country (perhaps even in your own) that's often comparable in price to a similar outsourced product. For example you can buy an American Apparel t-shirt for $15-20 that's made in the USA instead of an outsourced one for the same price (or in England you can buy an excellent quality Sunspel one for $30-40, they have the best base-layer clothing available and all made in England). You can buy a Finish made N9 instead of an iPhone, you can buy a German built Fujitsu-Siemens instead of an outsourced Toshiba, Sony, HP, etc... My point is that there's always choices and quite often they are not that much more expensive than their outsourced equivalents! The problem is people just don't care to look...

P.S. About Beoworld, sometimes it can take upto 10 hours for posts to get approved when they are very long...

Flappo – Many of the technologies you mentioned such as SACD, DVD and others were introduced and invented in collaboration with other companies such as Philips. I remember my old Philips CDI being one of the first machines to be able to play video discs on a TV. Perhaps Blueray is different but Sony does have some high quality products that are still made in Japan for their top of the range models ( something that Apple doesn't do as they only think about high profit margins with outsourcing). They also cater more to professionals in all sorts of things besides TVs and Blueray players. They for example manufacture professional HD camera's for the video industry, professional CRT monitors for telecine, digital intermediate transfers, and film production, some excellent quality professional notebooks that are made in Japan sometimes even from carbon fibre with spillproof keyboards. I wouldn't disregard Sony just for being a monopoly on a certain technology, and to be honest, they license out that technology for others to use (for example other Blueray manufacturers), something that Apple does not do!

Bayerische – As someone who comes from the film industry myself and who's worked in Hollywood on a major motion picture film production. I can tell you that the only way Apple is changing the industry is in its conversion from Avid to Finalcut, although it's still about 50/50. Finalcut is still often used on lower budget films and Avid preferred on higher budget ones. There are other ways of streaming films besides iTunes for example on demand on Amazon, and there are plenty of pay per view websites available. I don't think this is anything new. To be honest much of Apples technology has come from someone else. An example is that the Tablet PC was introduced by Bill Gates in 2002 and Steve Jobs only introduced the iPad in 2010, nobody cared about the Tablet PC yet everyone started going crazy over the iPad. In essence Apple only improved and made things more user friendly, not necessarily invented them.

TerryM – I'm in complete agreement with you. This is partly what I mentioned in my last post when I talked about TVs. 

Puncher – Reducing costs often involves reducing quality. The reason for the high cost is the hand assembly in a developed country which nearly all TVs in that high quality price bracket are... Along with expensive high quality materials, components, circuitry, etc... Obviously you could send all those components and materials over to China to be assembled for a lot less, but I have yet to see a high quality TV of the same standards as the B&Os, the Pioneer, Fujitsu and Panasonics that cost 5000-10,000 GBP come out of China. If China suddenly starts to produce their own products, at a level of the TVs we mentioned here, then I will be proven wrong, but I think that if this happens it will be a very very long time from now. You may disagree with me again, but I think that having your own factory in your own country with your own highly skilled labour that you've put through apprenticeship schemes, with your own quality control where you can go and talk to the workers who can give you suggestions ( as a side note this is often more the case in Japan than it is in almost any country, I took a Management in Japan course and can tell you that their system is extremely horizontal unlike in China and even many western countries when it comes to interaction between blue collar and white collar. In fact often in Japan a factory worker will give the CEO a suggestion, this is unseen and unheard of in China. Perhaps this is why CEOs only get paid 11 times more than the average worker in Japan whilst in China and America it's hundreds of times more. Maybe this is why Japan has such a middle class society) is very important to quality.

I have some friends who work in the Ministry of Economy of Japan, they were economic diplomats at the Japanese Embassy in London when I met them. I often had discussions on the subject of outsourcing with them and how many Japanese companies outsource these days (in fact more than many European countries do). They told me that many products which are labeled as “made in Japan” have most of their components sourced from other countries such as China, Thailand, Philippines, etc... but the main quality comes from the company controlling their own operations and assembling in house. It's this assembly with their high standards of quality control that determines the quality of a product because the company itself can check over each and every detail and improve as needed. This is exactly why B&O is such good quality, of course they have optical reads, certain electronics and chips and other components that are sourced from other companies in various countries all over the world, but the hand assembly in their own factories in Denmark and Czech is what really makes the quality stand out from the rest.

Dkatz wrote:

My point is...

...

moxxey wrote:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time and the younger people coming in below will be even more fussy and price-sensitive....which is the primary reason for this multi-page discussion (B&O outsourcing to improve their margin).

I'm not quite sure about that. B&O top-range products sales are rising in markets like Russia and China, where the newly-rich buy it. Simply because it's expensive and made in Europe. They would not buy it if it was made in China.

One of the reasons for the economical problems of B&O is that the sales have been decreasing in their previous big markets in europe and USA. Mostly because of the economical crisis. But I-m sure that the sales will rise again in those markets when the economy get better.
B&O has been in crisis several times before -always when there was recession in the world.

It's fine that they make some lower priced 'entry-products' -but if they start to outsource too much of the manufacturing of the high-end products (without lowering the prices), then it could backfire on them in the long run.
Who would buy a Rolls-Royce if it was made in China?   

moxxey wrote:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time

Who says.....?

The number of wealthy people on the planet is higher now than at any time in history. This is a fact.

It is only your opinion that the number of customers willing & able to spend £10k on a TV will diminish over time.

Perhaps the TV market globally is totally unique and different to most other markets. It would need to be for your opinion to be proved true. In most other markets prices increase and will continue to increase, and people will continually be prepared to pay those increasing prices.

Look at prices of higher end cars, higher end real estate, quality jewellery, quality watches, designer clothes, higher end hotel room rates, art prices etc etc. Prices in these luxury goods markets only go up, never down. But there are actually more people around nowadays with the ability to afford those prices, than at any previous time in human history.

Steffen wrote:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time and the younger people coming in below will be even more fussy and price-sensitive....which is the primary reason for this multi-page discussion (B&O outsourcing to improve their margin).

Steffen wrote:

I'm not quite sure about that. B&O top-range products sales are rising in markets like Russia and China, where the newly-rich buy it. Simply because it's expensive and made in Europe. They would not buy it if it was made in China.

One of the reasons for the economical problems of B&O is that the sales have been decreasing in their previous big markets in europe and USA. Mostly because of the economical crisis. But I-m sure that the sales will rise again in those markets when the economy get better.
B&O has been in crisis several times before -always when there was recession in the world.

It's fine that they make some lower priced 'entry-products' -but if they start to outsource too much of the manufacturing of the high-end products (without lowering the prices), then it could backfire on them in the long run.
Who would buy a Rolls-Royce if it was made in China?   

Exactly. You beat me to it Steffen, I agree.

Dkatz wrote:

 

I think you are quite right in saying that it is our choice but most consumers simply don't care. In fact I am the only person I know of that simply refuses to buy anything that's outsourced to developing countries be it computers, telephones, clothes, electronics, etc... Thankfully we all still have a choice as there's always an option to buy something that's made in a developed country (perhaps even in your own) that's often comparable in price to a similar outsourced product. For example you can buy an American Apparel t-shirt for $15-20 that's made in the USA instead of an outsourced one for the same price (or in England you can buy an excellent quality Sunspel one for $30-40, they have the best base-layer clothing available and all made in England). You can buy a Finish made N9 instead of an iPhone, you can buy a German built Fujitsu-Siemens instead of an outsourced Toshiba, Sony, HP, etc... My point is that there's always choices and quite often they are not that much more expensive than their outsourced equivalents! The problem is people just don't care to look...

 

So would you buy a high end Chinese label that's made in China?

Jonathan wrote:

So would you buy a high end Chinese label that's made in China?

If I felt it was made to better standards, better quality, with better materials than an equivilent product in Developed countries. If the company were completely transparent about their manufacturing process and product and materials used. If they paid their workers decent wages and gave them decent working conditions with benifits. The product would also have to be quite unique and significantly different than an equivilent product manufactured in my own country in order for me not to want to support my own economy and workforce. Then, I might consider buying a Chinese product. I, however, do not know of any products from China or any developing countries that meet those requirements or even come close... 

moxxey wrote:

Dkatz wrote:

My point is...