moxxey wrote:

bayerische wrote:

Puncher wrote:

My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

 

Amen!

Can't this thread grind to a halt? It's a discussion going no-where. We have people saying the Chinese can't produce quality, but who the hell cares? The proof is in the pudding and the pudding is damned good - the Chinese BS8 and Beolit 12 are great.

Miele may produce their washing machines in Germany, but I can also tell you that Miele purchasers I know say that recent Miele products are not a patch on old Miele products, which were built like tanks. Even Miele are finding ways to cut costs, like all manufacturers.

I've never seen a discussion before, at such length, where the argument is over successful products. How on earth can any create an argument around this?

People here are putting out daft arguments about quality of manufacturing.....as if the BS8/Beolit 12 were failures and the reason was due to the manufacturing! Weird, just weird.

Moxxey,

 

For me personally it's not about that the Chinese couldn't produce quality products.

I know they can. A good example is the Chinese hifi. Allthough it might not always be so easy to convince the press that this is the case.

 

What I don't like with the outsourcing going on right now at B&O is...

Mark my words.

Next will be the high-end stuff as the Beolab 5's, Beovision XX etc.

I can assure you that the prices of these products will follow inflation or a bit more. They will not become cheaper from being "made in China".

Sure one can always defend this practise with "capitalism at work". But I don't buy that. In this case it might be a desperate move to "produce". Numbers is what needs to be produced. This is seen with too many companies. Shareholders need to be overly satisfied. Bonuses need to be given left and right. And to give these bonuses margin and big payouts need to be made to the shareholders. Keep them happy, and they applaude another bonus for the execs.

Writing this I realize I'm portraying myself almost as red colored politically. 

Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm a business owner myself. But I take great pride in firstly being Finnish, and owning a Finnish company, albeit a small one. We use Finnish products as far as possible. I employ a Finnish staff. I like to think I make my own small contribution to society.

I like to think I drive my company with pride and quality, not greed. 

 

Surely money is in the masses, in more ways than one. But I can't help to think a product as the BL5 couldn't be economically made in Denmark at close to 20K euros a pair. 

 

Something that would be interesting to see is that are the higher end products of B&O selling stronger or weaker year by year? I suspect weaker, as we see this move to B&O play products. Could price play a role here?

I know I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again.

The prices of the TV's...

They are ridiculous. I like my BV10, but it's not worth the price. 

 

If one of your strongest marketing ideas is the masterlink, and the interconnection with your products and ultimately the idea of having your whole home filled with one brand, why on earth is it so lacking?

 

On the positive note, we who own the fabulous BL5's, made in Denmark edition, maybe they will become collectable, as a Comex sub...? 😂😂😂

Dkatz wrote:

Bentleyman – Excellent points. Completely agree with you! Are you a proud owner of a Bentley yourself as I am of a Lotus? ;-) British cars really are the best (although Italian cars come close).

 

Hello Dkatz,

Yes I like my old british made cars.😁 Here is my current 'old girl' whom I've had for about 6 yrs now. A 1988 Bentley Turbo R with 68,000 miles.

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And here is my everyday runabout Jag XJ8 from 1998 🙂 my 7th Jaguar in the last 15 years.

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And prior to my 1988 Bentley, when I lived up in the north of Sweden I had a 1990 Rolls~Royce Silver Spirit MkII (pictured below)

I bought that one in Essex, took it over to Sweden, registered it over there, and then flogged it through a guy called Anders Rhodin who runs the fantastic Rhodins Automobile Service in Trollhattan

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Dkatz - I'd like to see a picture of your Lotus that you are so proud of 🙂 can u post..?

Regards,

Bentleyman wrote:

So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.

The price for B&O tv's is getting ridiculous in my book. Why they didn't make a Beovision 6-32 is beyond me if they could have kept things under £3-4,000. If products like the Beosound 8/Beolit 12 fill the coffers, so the company has the luxury of gambling on some extravagance then thats fine. Hopefully it will introduce then next generation of Beoworlders that will be here moaning predicting etc when i'm a dribbling geriatric.

When is the new "budget" tv coming out that replaces the dreadful 8? Really tempted to get a 6 with hdmi sockets.

This reply is a Merlot fuelled production

No sign of the new tvs I'm afraid! I think they could be quite a way off IMHO.

Bv6-32 is the TV I always said they should have made - it would have been fantastic, with a wide appeal and a decent price!

henrik wrote:

Bentleyman wrote:

So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.

Thank you Henrik.  Your examples add to my point.🙂

Also - Avant was expensive, but I clearly recall pricing up Sony & Pana equivalent CRTs, a decent VCR, some good speakers and a suitable stand (not motorised, because no one made them except B&O)  to arrive at a similar package, and the Avant was still less than  twice as much.

Don't recall the model numbers, but Sony did a white finish CRT, with a matching VCR ( £499 and stand - that was a £2000+ combination when Avant was £3,600

 

 

Tod Daniel wrote:

Actually Moxxey, I think the BS8 is terrible! Its sound quality does not involve or invite. I think it's horrible and im convinced in years to come, this forum will say avoid stuff like this.

Its no more than a £300 product with a B&O badge, out sourced in China to appeal to B&O's existing rich customers who simply do not know any better!

Tod, I don't know you personally and, remember this is a forum only, but I don't take anything you say above seriously. The BS8 produces very good audio....for £890. It's not amazing - it won't go near my BL3s - but it's a great all-round product with very good audio for a decent price.

50,000+ sales, mostly positive comments, good reviews tell me the opposite of what you're trying to say. So, very much discounted.

Sad times, but I think some people on this board aren't moving with B&O and will be left behind. But without sounding too personal - it's only a forum - this might not be such a bad thing.

Tod Daniel wrote:

Actually Moxxey, I think the BS8 is terrible! Its sound quality does not involve or invite. I think it's horrible and im convinced in years to come, this forum will say avoid stuff like this.

Its no more than a £300 product with a B&O badge, out sourced in China to appeal to B&O's existing rich customers who simply do not know any better!

It seems to me that you are the only one with that opinion. After all, it's their all-time top seller!

But do you think it would have sounded any better if it was made in Denmark? That the prototype was a brilliant little speaker and the drawings was perfect when they left the R&D department in Struer, but the Chinese, beeing useless, assembled it all wrong?

henrik wrote:

Bentleyman wrote:

So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.

Sorry but I'm not incorrect. I accept that using UK prices is an unfair comparison. But what about using average take-home pay instead....I gave this example as well as my house price analogy. What about using a new car price comparison instead...(1968 v. 2012 prices).

A newly qualified teacher in 1968 had a net take home wage of £54 per month, today it's circa £1,500 per month.

A Beovision 3000 in 1968 cost £400+

On £54 a month it would take you 8 months of pay to buy the BV3000. Todays equivalent TV would be £12,000. So saying that the Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv is plainly incorrect.

I accept joeyboygolf's point that TV's were very expensive back then (so the Avant was not the first really expensive tv obviously), so lets look at a Beomaster instead....

A Beomaster 3000 in 1970 for example cost £135 + 9shillings. This would be 2.5 months pay @ £54 per month and so would equate to circa £4,000 today - very similar to the end of line price of a BS9000.

But we are not talking about top of the line products such as BS9000, we are talking about B&O Play products costing £600-800. Dkatz, Tod and myself have been talking all along about the 'de-valuing' of the brand image/exclusivity. This is what we are trying to say.

BTW I used to own a swedish property and so I know a little about the scandinavian property market myself. It's totally incomparable with the UK property market, so lets forget the house price comparison ok?. For the new price of a BV5 or a BV9 you could have bought a whole house in Sweden, with ground (and you still can! - see blocket.se) 

Bentleyman wrote:

 ........so why do you keep adding your opinions to it, thereby fueling the debate/discussion/argument then..?

I'm not sure I can take you seriously using the moniker "Bentleyman" from Rochdale.

I'm not saying that my word is final, I'm saying the entire discussion is going around in circles. B&O are moving down a path which is having moderate to good success. The BS8 and Beolit 12 are, generally, being regarded as good to great products. Positive. However, yourself and a small handful - and I note a small handful - of users are determined to shout everyone else down.

The point here is these Chinese outsourced products are actually darned good, particularly for the price. However, yourself and others insist on making a big deal out of this, with little objective whatsoever. Bayerische is now saying he thinks other products will be outsourced, but we have zero idea whether that will happen, so what's the point speculating? The reason the cheaper products are Chinese manufactured is simply due to the production level - B&O aren't going to sell 50,000 BL5s, in a year, as an example. They can justify the production of these products in Denmark. The reason they moved to China for the cheapest products is so they can meet demand (and keep up supply).

The "devaluing" of the brand as you say. Well, that might stop a few Bentley-owning users from buying B&O products in future, but B&O's future is more with the masses, those under 35, and those people who can't afford property as a lot of the people have bought up property for profit, pushing up both the cost and rent.