rmclachlan wrote:

BTW there is no comparison between Rolls Royce, Louis Vuitton, Hermes etc and B&O. the former are much higher end than B&O. Many people can afford to own B&O, only the truly wealthy can really afford these other high end brands. B&O are more in the Aston Martin, Porsche category , they are not Bugatti, Rolls Royce or even Ferrari, Lamborghini. [Sorry for the car stuff, it is just something I know about]

@rmclachlan

I understand your point and I agree to an extent. However, in their respective markets they are comparable. Of course a car is going to be more costly than a TV or a Hi-Fi, that stands to reason. But in their respective marketplaces they are similar because they are aiming at the very top of those markets.

The debate here is about B&O shifting into a more 'middle market' position, trying to appeal to a wider customer base with less disposable income. 

They are turning to outsourcing as a way of doing that. I just wish they weren't thats all.

Excellent points made by Michael.

Rmclachlan - not too sure about the Louis Vuiiton thing - When i lived in Manchester, I knew many a lady in their early to mid 20s that would quite happily save up their commission and blow £1500 on a bag... and then do the same 2 months later!!!

When I was at university, I had a few rich Chinese friends and they all drove brand new BMW 5 series - it was unbelieveable 19 year olds!!! They didnt think made in China was up to much!

I must say, it made me really proud when Bang & Olufsen was Made in Denmark because it was different!  In my view, the only thing that I will remember Tue Montani for is taking the quality B&O name and outsourcing it to China in the name of profit.  Really, what a total, total insult to a heritage!

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech. Just my BS9000 is from Denmark...

raveny wrote:

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech

Exactly - and it would appear that this has happened without any perceivable drop in quality - maybe others can reach the dizzy levels of Danish artisans after all!

Some other rumblings regarding recent posts -

I never considered B&O to be a Rolls Royce or even Aston Martin brand - more a Mercedes, who pitched their product at the professional, middle classes. I actually think it began to wobble when it started chasing Rolls Royce customers to the exclusion of others!

There are articles online where Italian clothing and leather brands claim their product isn't made in China even when confronted with evidence! It seems there is also a practise of producing goods to a 99% level of finshed and then fitting buckles, buttons etc. in Italy so that they can attach the "Made in Italy" label.

Of course there are other ways - there is a town in Italy (whose name escapes me) famous for its leather industry - it's said to have the highest Chinese population in the country, not all, it is claimed, are legal.

Chinese may buy Rolls Royces but they don't buy them because of the hand stitched Connolly hide interiors, the 5 layers of paint (not counting Laquer) or because it was assembled by a man using only tools from medieval times made from hardwood. They buy them because they are a loud, blatant and public statement of their wealth. They are very label concious with the proviso that you can actually see the label - there is an instance of an Italian clothing manufacturer failing miserably in China because the product didn't have a clear and recognisable logo - the quality of the goods was unquestioned.

Tod Daniel wrote:

Excellent points made by Michael.

Many thanks Tod, Cheers 🤒

Tod Daniel wrote:

Actually Moxxey, being a total male model fashion victim, I can confirm that Dolce & Gabbana do not make clothes in China. ALL of their clothes (except underwear) is made at the factory that they own in Italy. 

I'm talking generally - Armani knitwear certainly is and a lot of "retail" versions of these brands (not those from a D&G boutique). But my point was that more and more fashion brands are outsourcing their manufacturing, but NO-ONE complains. It's not as if people are walking back in these stores and are up in arms about the fact that these brands have started outsourcing manufacturing. I'm sure my friend - as a store owner - would be the first to panic if they were.

Yes, lots of suits are now made in Portugal, again to reduce manufacturing costs.

The argument in fashion is fairly irrelevant as the markup on clothing is huge. I know some of the prices my mens store owning friend buys at and it's incredible. They easily make 100% markups and more. This isn't the same as in the electronics business. I'd only guess at what an average B&O dealer takes from each sale, but it has to be between 15-25%.

The luxury clothing market is very different. You can easily buy a D&G cashmere jumper for £500, where the retailer has bought it for £250, maybe less. With these kinds of markups, it makes sense to get them produced in Italy, as the profit margin allows this.

Comparing the manufacturing cost of producing a BS8 in Denmark, I wouldn't like to think how much profit B&O can make after they manufacture in their factory.

And this is the fundamental problem. The amount of money B&O are making within this industry. Haven't we seen B&O in a mess over the last four years? If your argument is simply for them to "carry on as you are" then you have your head very much in the sand. And, the arguments on here very much give me the impression that people have their head buried in the sand.

Effectively you want B&O to carry on as they are, produce everything in Denmark, but somehow improve their profit margin so they can push on and make a profit in the future?

B&O have no choice but to reduce their costs and target a younger audience if they want to push on and be a strong brand in the next ten years.

raveny wrote:

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech. Just my BS9000 is from Denmark...

Yep, and my new BV10 had a Czech label reference on the box and so did parts for my BC6-23.

I do like the way the whole discussion here is about China, when most of B&O products are manufactured in the Czech Republic. But, that appears to be ok....

On the basis of 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating',the apparent success of the Beolit 12 suggests that B & Os decision to outsource it's manufacture has not deterred buyers.

To my mind,one has to consider the trends within a market into which one is introducing a new product.

One with rapid technological change,such as television,demands a different commercial approach to one that is slow moving,such as Hi-Fi.

To throw my hand in.....

Puncher wrote:

I never considered B&O to be a Rolls Royce or even Aston Martin brand - more a Mercedes, who pitched their product at the professional, middle classes.

Actually, I think B&O are very much like Aston Martin. They have their Idiosyncrasies only found in that brand, a common reluctance to change direction and when they do, you can claim they are not meeting any particular market. i.e.

One-77 – not the fastest limited edition sports car in the world. Hardly affordable at GBP1.4M each (if you can find one), but then again it is honest in that it was not heavily subsidised like VW’s Veyron. This is pure mulit-millionaire territory that only a very few, very very privileged can afford. Hand-built like an Airfix/ Lego set, I am sure the Chinese could build this to the same exacting standards without having Midlands DNA as a pre-curser.

Cygnet – to me, the fundamental direction where B&O is going right now. i.e. It is an iPod dock with a leather dash and four wheels around it (and to be generous, probably the best bit of the car). Relatively affordable as an “Aston” (or especially if you buy the Toyota IQ version and the forth-coming Polish after-market body kit). Pure de-basing of the brand and akin to putting B&O down to Mercedes (Bose) level.

Further, like B&O, even their best “regular” products – the DBS and V12 Vantage (akin to say the BS9000 and BL5) are assembled in Gaydon but the components are shipped from around the world. Wheels from US aluminium billets, Same with Ford engines built in Cologne, leather from Sweden, Italian Graziano transmissions and headlights and carbon fibre from Canada. I even think they use the odd Danish music systems (hand built in China with Chinese components).

Puncher wrote:

Chinese may buy Rolls Royce’s but they don't buy them because of the hand stitched Connolly hide interiors, the 5 layers of paint (not counting Laquer) or because it was assembled by a man using only tools from medieval times made from hardwood. They buy them because they are a loud, blatant and public statement of their wealth. They are very label conscious with the proviso that you can actually see the label - there is an instance of an Italian clothing manufacturer failing miserably in China because the product didn't have a clear and recognisable logo - the quality of the goods was unquestioned.

Very true, but then this is true of all cars we own. They are and always have been a statement of wealth. I think most Western people would prefer to walk, bicycle or take the bus than own a Lada or other soviet socialist automobilia should there be a minimal choice of expression.

Getting back on-topic, I must say I get amazed by the demands of people within this fora. Call it a difference of opinion but how do we reconcile our main wants and desires with reality:-

To be like/better than Apple

To be a cheaper product

To be made in Demark

To be cutting edge design

To last X years

To be trendy for the youth

To be simple for the less youthful/tech savvy

All I can see is a Company now making Cygnets (iPod docks) when it should be focusing on making solid, steady bread and butter DBS’s with a glorious V12 engine soundtrack (Beolab 3/5/9/xx’s) with if necessary, Chinese fingers or whomever can produce the pre-requisite quality of finish that the brand deserves.

My ten cents.

moxxey wrote:

I'm talking generally - Armani knitwear certainly is and a lot of "retail" versions of these brands (not those from a D&G boutique). But my point was that more and more fashion brands are outsourcing their manufacturing, but NO-ONE complains. It's not as if people are walking back in these stores and are up in arms about the fact that these brands have started outsourcing manufacturing. I'm sure my friend - as a store owner - would be the first to panic if they were.

Yes, lots of suits are now made in Portugal, again to reduce manufacturing costs.

No-one complains ...  Exactly the point.

I don't know much about clothng labels, but it seems to me that in effect, when you buy such "labels" on the high street, you are essentially buying a sub-brand, and it will be made in the far east, not Italy or Saville Row.

The mid-range stuff is made in Portugal - aka Czech Republic.

I honestly do not see what all the bluster is about here - yes, ideally B&O, being Danish, would make everything by hand in Denmark...but that just isn't viable, it seems.

Maybe the future for B&O is :

Top End, R&D, Admin = Denmark.

Mid Range & Parts hub - Czech Republic.

BeoPlay - Outsourced.

Why exactly is this a problem?

I stand by my earlier example of the US guitar giants & sub brands -  It can work.

I too think there is a slightly unpleasant touch of zenophobia creeping into some posts - and regardless of all the politics and so on, if the only way to stay open is to run a sub brand that inputs enough into the group to cashflow the business and therefore  to survive....that is the only option - ask anyone who works for Kodak how grim it is when your business folds.