Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

joeyboygolf wrote:

Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

I agree, although it certainly isn't contrary to anything I said earlier:

I wasn't talking about specifications - I know well enough that they're largely hokum. Same goes for 'bells & whistles" features, but...

...if in a group test the DVD player with the shoddiest build or the TV with the grainiest picture happens to be the most expensive, you have to look for something to counter this, and make it a worthwhile purchase to the "middle ground" customers. 

If not, their perception of B&O as being "overpriced, under-teched, badge-engineered run-of-the-mill equipment in a posh frock" (and this from the owner of one of the largest chains of HiFi retail etc) in the country 15 years ago) will continue, no matter how much I save up to buy a 20 year old Beosystem, or if the Beckhams buy half a dozen shiny new Beovisions....which brings me to reiterate what I said about TV's earlier in this thread -

If Beoworld members (who presumably appreciate the 'je ne sais quoi" of B&O) are advising each other to buy a different brand TV because it is not only cheaper, but has a better picture, then surely this says a lot. 

Of course some people would buy *anything* simply out of brand loyalty, and that's commendable, if nothing else, but to use the above car analogy - if an Aston Martin used  Mondeo running gear, but had less creature comforts and was a bit slower, but looked like an Aston Martin, and cost like one would they really sell as well as they do?

Can name and looks alone *really* be all that matters?

joeyboygolf wrote:

Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

I think that's a tad unfair on this thread, Graham. Perhaps you are talking to the wrong audience (ie. we all buy and like B&O). Sounds like you're suggesting that my and other posts, above are not 'sensible'. Just because a post matches your viewpoint, doesn't mean it's more or less sensible. Just means you agree!

The problem I have is that there are times when B&O make fabulous kit and I want them , but other times when the equipment just doesn't stand out. Stand out products for me were the 2400 system in 1980 - remote control, no buttons and good sound, compared to boring stack systems from other makes - Beosystem 5000 - the remote was light years ahead of anything else on the market - Beolink 7000 and Beocenter 9500 - again a remote which is still ahead of the market and a music centre that had no buttons but responded simply to touch and completely intuitively. On the TV front, the LX series were beautifully made with a superb picture and sound and still had real wood finishes and the Avant had a great picture and sound and neither were so expensive to be unattainable.

The BS9000 was something very special (and still is) and the design of the BV5 was the only plasma set that really looked different (unfortunately the picture is still a Panasonic plasma).

The present range doesn't excite me (speakers excepted) - the BS5 just isn't as good as I can get with my Mac as I cannot work it in a link room. The BV7 picture is just not good enough and the software issues are horrendous. It also looks like many other makes in my view. The BV8 at least looks different - I have not seen the 8-40 yet so will not judge it yet. The audio side seems to have lost its way - the BC2 (I have one) is pleasant enough but I hardly ever use mine now - I use digital music instead. The BS4 is just not clever enough and with the death of the BS2, the SD card is obsolete. The BS3200 is now a dinosaur - the HDD is a joke - having to name your own CDs? The BS9000 still is the star but I wouldn't use one as I want to choose from all my music.

The bit that is letting the side down is what was its strength before - Beolink. This needs to be digital and to allow multiple sources to play at once. There needs to be proper two way control - the BM5 is fine but the BS5 should have been wireless and maybe a simpler version required - think Beolink 5000 and 7000. One big expensive one with all the tricks and a simplified one for link rooms. However both should be portable.

TV screens need more magic too. The BV10 promises to be more like it - I want good pictures and sound and I want a USP. We need designers who think out of the box - my mind keeps coming back to a rollable screen - reduce the big black box to a sculpture than only unfolds when activated - get away from the obvious. Make the picture come alive - something akin to the theatre curtains of old. To do this, B&O have to adapt the technology available in ways that other companies will not do. They have done this before but are lagging in my view at present. Not wishing to bang an old drum, but the products that make me smile most these days seem to be from Apple , not B&O. Lots of special materials and software that really works. Having a shiny toy that annoys you is just no fun.

Rant over! 😂

Great accomplishments lead to appreciation by connoisseurs. Sham accomplishments can trick even experts for a while, but usually stand revealed, in the end.

B&O has, for decades, delivered a series of great accomplishments, and did therefore achieve appreciation by the most discerning of customers -- but then the brand began coasting on its reputation, instead of pushing the envelope. The Betamax debacle has much to answer for, it made the organization too cautious, in a field where customers expect leading edge.

A few products have held the fort, so to speak, but too many have strayed from the level expected by demanding customers. It's as if the Bodega Catena Zapata began diluting its wine with cheap plonk, and let's be honest, there are a few plonk products and some strange thinking. (The adoption and abandonment of SD-cards is one example.)

And strangely, the company hasn't promoted the achievements that really stand out, such as acoustic lenses and room calibration; or even what they managed with the car-fi. And I don't care a whit what they charge for their televisions, as long as I get at least state-of-the-art technology. (And when I bought my BV8 I didn't even ask for that, but bought in appreciation of the design).

Being a connoisseur doesn't mean buying the most expensive, or the most flashy, but achieving an exceptional experience through discernment and insight -- B&O has to provide more fodder for discernment and insight, quite simply.

Peter - sadly I agree with you.  A little while back i got rid of my BV4-65, 4*BL8000, BS9000 and a range of other bits - this decision taken after 15 years of adoring everything B&O.  I now have a pioneer kuro 60" and some B&W 800 series speakers.  The only other things visible are my Macs with ipod touches used as remotes.  Reflecting on my divorce with B&O I have three observations:

- It is the video side of B&O that is most worrying for the future of the company. Pioneer's video performance is in an entirely different league to B&O.  My wife, who has little emotional attachment with B&O or and is therefore more objective, is amazed by the difference in quality.  Sound, however, is much more marginal with BL9 & 5 being excellent products.  This reminds me when I was in New York recently at an excellent restaurant - problem was through that although the food was only marked up say 30%, the wines had a 800% profit margin which left me feeling ripped off and a little stupid - undermined the whole experience.  For me the BV range (particularly the larger BV4) has the same effect.  

- The ability to really integrate with Apple and itunes is very refreshing - using the ipod touch to control everything is real magic and joy to use - I had a good play with a BS5 in a store the other day and for me it cannot compete.  I love bits if it but is thoroughly outdated.  The same goes for using CAT6 to pipe HD sound and vision though the house.  I don't think I could go back to ML now.

- My emotion connection with B&O is with the past products which were amazing for their time imho B&O were and are not keeping up - not just with technology but more importantly with real innovation - its not enough to have a product like the BS9000 once every twenty years.  For me the real issue with B&O is not price, nor pure tech features, but real innovation that amazes the user and creates the joy and emotional connection with continued use.

I would have to disagree that ignorant or connoisseur are the only valid choices.  Not ignorant for many reasons, not least the intelligence, insight and refinement shown by the majority of members of this forum and not connoisseur because connoisseurs usually usually seek out and value the best and imho opinion B&O are not that.  So it may well be something else..... 

Agree - the essence of B&O should be joy - joy of use, joy of ownership and joy of performance. If you have to make excuses, where is the joy. I don't care about the cost, though clearly you cannot price yourselves out of a market, but I want something out of the ordinary. What we have at present is a veneer - I want it to be solid.

As said before, the speakers are the one area I would exclude from this - the Beolab 5s are simply incredible in every way and the BL9 and 3 are also great.

Very interesting thread.

I fully agree with your post Peter. I have owned B&O before, switched to other brands in the late 90ies and ended up switching back to B&O.

Though the setup I own now is certainly not the newest items (90ies beosystem 7000), it is the one that gives me most joy in use.
The 2-way beolink 5000 and 7000 remotes are still fantastic to use. Features like this are now very much lacking I find.  
My next item will be a beosound9000 as I still play alot of cd's.

It's a given that the latest models of speakers are some of the best I have ever heard (beolab 3,5,9,8000) and definately B&O's forte.

Though the new beosound5 is a good starting point for a digital concept though it lacks most of the necessary requirements such as easy expansion, an updated wired or wireless masterlink that is sold and fast and capable of audio and HD video, and of course a good reliable, fast and easy to use 2-way remote system. Sadly the compromise is to make is too big for me to buy one, otherwise I sure would have one right now.
I am installing a mac mini with Itouch remote for playing all my digital files.  

I would suggest that B&O would limit its tv offerings to 2 models : The more economic BV8 series and a more exclusive BV5-type offering.
I feel B&O have invested way too much money in this sector, with poor results and (if they continue like that) will be there demise.
Also dropping the beosystem3 in favour for a smaller and cheaper version with less bells and whistles would help many of us out to keep our B&O systems functional.

I am sorry to the say that the price of the tv's and beosystem3 were way out of my budget then and therefore one of the decisive reason to get rid of ALL my by B&O gear in the first place. However I will look into the BV8-40 when it would come available here in Canada. It's got the looks and if the image is up to standard it would certainly be a worthwhile investment for me to consider. Looking forward that ....

Very interesting posts from all -  to be fair I think Peter has hit at least one of the nails on the head.  About 6 months ago I bought an IMAC, and from thereon I have gone on to buy a 13.3 led screen macbook, together with a 24" led cinema display which will soon be taken out of its box to use! These products do it for me personally as does my Pioneer 43" PDP.  Again we agree regarding the 5's, 3's and 9's (in that order).

From my perspective I know a lot of people who are core B&O customers and who have looked at the current range -  especially the prices - and simply feel that B&O no longer caters for them, the relatively wealthy are no longer catered for.  The general feeling is that it is the uber-wealthy which B&O now caters for and at the prices charged today - not from June 1st - who can blame anyone for feeling that way. 

But for me it is not just the price, it is the product. The TVs are just not good enough or special enough. Even the BV9 is spoilt by the ALT lens. It is supposed to be a picture frame - in which case, why does it have a bit of metal sticking out the front! That should have been behind the canvas - not on display! Spoils the effect completely for me. I don't think the BV7 prices are bad really - they are set at about Avant level plus 10% which I don't object to. I just don't like the style or the picture. Here is hoping for the BV10! Supposed to be a thin BV5 - I hope the picture is good though!