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Beogram 1200 repair

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josh134
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josh134 Posted: Wed, Jan 2 2013 2:20 PM

 

Hi,

I don't have a specific question, although any tips along the way would be most welcome!

I'm new to the site, I found it through google after my wife for Christmas bought me a Beogram 1200 as a project (she knew it wasn't working and she also knows I like to fix things!).

I work in advertising but have a background in telecommunications engineering and have always been tinkering with home appliances. I have a record player back home in Australia but haven't found a way / been bothered to ship it over here to the UK. I live quite centrally in London therefore don't really have a great setup for working on this type of thing - it's mostly a coffee table and plastic cups for holding screws!

I'm back today from holidays and have spent a couple of hours today already working on the 1200. Here's a record of what I've done in case this helps someone in the future or in case anyone has experienced anything similar and wants to guide me on the right path! I apologise in advance if I don't know the correct names for things. I'll try to match parts up with a manual I've downloaded here (created a new free account .. seems ok, haven't been spammed yet!).

First thing I tried was plug the thing into the mains and see what was happening. The user who sold it reported that nothing happened but he could feel something warming up on the underside of the deck. Sure enough, he was right - nothing happens. I didn't check the warming thing as I don't want to damage anything further than it may have been damaged already.

Next step, I've taken the bottom cover off. I can see that the drive belt isn't sitting in its guide track properly. It's also stuck on the between the drive wheel and idler wheel. Popped the base back on, approached from the top to free the belt. Back into the base again and drive belt is now sitting correctly. Back into the mains - no luck.

Ok, to check the electrical basics. Yes, I have power coming in to the unit. Yes, there's continuity on the connection block, into the voltage switch and out the other side. Hmm.

Right ... I guess I'm going to see about getting into the motor itself (still hoping it's a loose electrical connection or something simple!). Removed the motor cover from the bottom (3 nuts and had to bend out two metal prongs to release the cover). Nothing obvious here. Cover back on. Free the motor chassis by removing the suspension assemblies to look at the top. Nothing obvious here either. Poke around, drive roller off and back on again. Nope, nothing obvious here unfortunately. Before putting the motor cover back on again, plugged into mains. Aha! Some wobbly movement!

A small break. Whilst on break, read this article - could be relevant? This one is about the same model but I haven't got to checking the arm yet!

Deep into the motor now. Drive roller off, motor chassis still off. Bottom bearing of motor prised off with some effort. Rotor removed from stator, again with a fair bit of effort. All parts cleaned with a cloth sprayed with WD40. Everything back together again. Much more free movement of the motor now! Still rotating much slower than I'd expect - about 1 rev per second? Everything back together, into the mains and ... platter spinning but really really slowly. Move speed selector to "0" and scratch my head for a moment. Sounds like the motor is starting to spin quicker? Pop selector back to "33" but still only slow spinning of the platter .. and now it's stopped.

Right! That's all I have time for today, will have another look tomorrow.

I have some photos but can't work out how to upload these for use here .. will also check that out for tomorrow.

 

 

josh134
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josh134 replied on Wed, Jan 2 2013 7:36 PM

Good news, I figured out how to upload photos.

Here is my work area:

Here is the chassis:

And the motor assembly. You can see I've popped the voltage selector out to get a better look at where everything goes:

josh134
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josh134 replied on Thu, Jan 3 2013 1:08 PM

Working on the coffee table today, as opposed to floor! No movement still after quick first check. Remove base cover and motor cover:

No movement again, even when given a little nudge with an insulated screwdriver. Hand spins fine (no power). Close up of the motor with cover removed.

Lift motor chassis to check if there's anything obvious. Remove drive roller in case that's obstructing things somehow. Remove the whole rotor from the stator again and clean with alcohol wipe.

Everything back together (mostly), power on .. no movement. Hmm. Plan B - I noticed yesterday that there's a little switch which I suspect cuts the motor out when the record finishes. I can't tell what this part is called from my manual. Anyway, I rotated the main cam until the switch changed. Success! Back to the very slow rotation experienced yesterday.

Video here (forum software seems to be cutting embedded Youtube videos out, and isn't allowing me to upload videos to the files area).

Not really sure now. For a laugh, I'm going to change the voltage selector to 110V. Oh wow, the motor's really spinning now! Very noisy though - still, this looks more like what I expected.

Some quick photos before putting everything back together. Here's (1) drive roller off and (2) drive roller on:

Player up the right way now. Tried again at 240V, slow spinning. Down to 110V on the selector and spinning what looks like much more like the correct speed. A bit of noise coming off that motor though.

Not entirely convinced about the speed, tried it with a record on it to see what it looked like ... maybe ... big test will be to plug into an amp and see what it sounds like. Unfortunately I only just ordered that cable so might have to wait a day or two to find out.

Here's the slow spinning.

And here's the "correct" speed??:

Ok, done for the day again! Until next time!

 

Søren Mexico
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Good job until now. But do not use WD40 in your turntables, use a good sewing machine oil or liquid bearings, I recommend to take the mechanical drive apart, clean it and lubricate it, to check the speed, download a strobe disc, print it, cut it to size and check the speed.

Nice pics and welcome to the forum

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

josh134
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josh134 replied on Fri, Jan 11 2013 8:34 AM

Thanks for the tip! I picked up some sewing machine oil yesterday and have started to really strip the motor back to bearings so I can clean and oil. Photos to follow.

I'm also really getting nothing out of the motor any more (tried before I dissembled) so I'm going to read up on how they work so I can maybe devise some kind of test to make sure the electromagnet/s are working as they should. It's been a while and AC isn't my specialty, but I read somewhere that it's a basic 2 pole induction motor so I'm going to start by googling that.

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josh134 replied on Mon, Jan 14 2013 4:07 PM

Hi again,

Some disappointing news, I've pulled the motor apart completely, cleaned and oiled everything but unfortunately it didn't make any difference. The only way the motor spins anywhere near like the speed it should spin at is by selecting 110V - and latest news is now I'm getting absolutely nothing. I've been doing some reading about how dual voltage motors work and chances are I've burnt out the windings by using the 110V setting.

One thing I noticed is that one side of the stator is taped up, I suspect that the windings have been replaced on one of the electromagnets in the past.

It seems that my options are to buy another 1200 advertised as spares/repairs and either use the (presumably) good cartridge from this player in the other unit, or use the (presumably) good motor in this unit. Or, find out which electromagnet isn't working and re-wind it. Ah! The difference between 110V and 220V settings must be that one has the electromagnets connected in series, the other in parallel.

Still having fun though!

Here's my latest photos from stripping everything back:

 

Here we have the bottom bearing assembly and rotor -

Here's the stator separated from the chassis -

A close up of the chassis with the stator removed (interestingly, this is a bit different from what it looks like in the manual) -

Chassis again, the top bearing cover removed (but bearing assembly still in place) -

Here's the dissembled top bearing assembly -

And finally the chassis with all of the motor components removed for cleaning and oiling -

 

josh134
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josh134 replied on Sun, Feb 3 2013 4:38 PM

Hi, me again!

It's been a while since I've had a play with the 1200, mostly due to life stuff (moved onto a new job, yawn). One thing that did happen though was that I picked up a "for spares" 1203 from ebay for about £30 with the hope that the motor assembly would be the same. It arrived, and it IS the same (at first inspection anyway).

So today I had a proper look. The motor on the 1203 spins, nice speed, nice and quiet, looks like it's in good order. I took the assembly off and apart from there being a bit of dust and superficial corrosion it looks fine. I've decided to bring everything across into the 1200 including the power cable, so chopped off the cables to whatever the relay is in the 1203. I had to hardwire the switch closed (normally controlled by brown and black cables from relay) for testing - it works fine as a standalone assembly so fingers crossed there. Next job for that assembly is clean it up ready to be transplanted into the 1200.

Meanwhile, in the 1200, I have to remove the non-functioning motor assembly. Again, I'm removing everything including power cable to make life a bit easier. It looks like the 1200 has the option of being battery powered (although can't really work out what size batteries it would take and how that would fit in, so I had to cut those thin grey cables. I also had to remove the switch temporarily in order to pull everything out. The plan is to keep the 1203's motor hardwired on until it's in place and tested, then I'll have to do some soldering to reconnect the switch.

So, a good day's work. Here's my photos.

This is the 1203 before I'd done anything to it:

A close up of the 1203 motor assembly in situ:

The 1203's motor assembly removed from the body and flipped over. Note minor corrosion:

The electrical connections before removal from the 1203. I had to cut 1 x black, 1 x brown and 1 x blue cables:

The electrical connections on the 1200 pre-motor removal. The right hand side just goes to a voltage selector where all the wires are annoyingly soldered. The 1203 doesn't have a voltage selector, for reference:

The thin grey wires (assumed DC battery) on the 1200. The other end of these appears to terminate on one of the motor's inductors:

Lastly, everything just before removal from the 1200. This is mostly a reference shot of the switch so I can put it back correctly once the 1203's motor is transplanted in.

 

Final note, the 1203 isn't in great shape, missing some key pieces (including stylus) but apart from the motor parts I don't need anything else, so if anyone needs other parts from it I'm happy to post anything anywhere for the cost of the postage. Best probably to PM me if you're interested.

Ok, until next time!

Søren Mexico
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Before you mount the motor and drive in the 1200, take them apart for cleaning and lubricating, specially the drive swing shaft and motor bearings.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

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josh134 replied on Tue, Feb 5 2013 12:35 PM

Thanks for the tips Søren! I indeed took everything apart, it was all a bit grubby, cleaned it up with white spirit and lubricated with sewing machine oil.

No pictures in this post, but I popped the motor in last night and looks to be running nicely.

I didn't check anything sound-wise but had a crack at plugging it in to my amp as it was - no sound. I could hear the stylus producing sound from the record I was playing, but the amplification wasn't working. Could be my amp being a bit too modern and clever, so I'm just going to use a basic test rig (old computer speakers) that I know will work. Hopefully it's something basic ... but if not I have a whole lot of spare parts in the 1203!

Søren Mexico
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Depending on your amp, you may need a preamp

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

josh134
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josh134 replied on Wed, Feb 6 2013 9:20 AM

 

Great news! At first test, the transplanted motor seems to work nicely. The sound issue was a nice easy one, the connections to the DIN plug were completely botched so I actually removed the DIN plug completely and just connected it up to RCA plugs for testing purposes. And it worked very nicely - although Søren is completely right, it needs a preamp both because it's quite quiet and also because it needs grounding to remove hum.

After reading through the manuals a bit more, turns out that the 1200 takes a preamp "card" that slots into the bottom of the unit. The thin grey cables that I thought were battery cables in fact connect to windings in the motor to produce 15V to power the preamp. I can't use that any more because the motor from the 1203 doesn't have that 15V winding. Not to worry, I'm sure an original preamp card for the 1200 wouldn't be that convenient to come across, so I'm just going to buy an external one. I decided to get a cheap one at first until everything was working nicely then I might invest in something a bit nicer.

Next steps (apart from waiting for the preamp to arrive) are to reconnect the switch and affix the mains terminal block to the chassis. I noticed a slight rubbing sound when the turntable is spinning (once per revolution) so would like to see if I can figure out what's causing that too. Then a final polish and hopefully we're in business!

Here's the mangled DIN connections:

 

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josh134 replied on Tue, Feb 19 2013 10:01 AM

We're very nearly there! I got a cheap pre-amp (for test purposes, although the same pre-amp sells for a wide variety of prices so not really sure if I got a bargain or if other people are being ripped off!) and hooked it all up ... it sounds very good through my home system!

Unfortunately the soldered connections on the cut-out switch snapped off, and it will be a couple of weeks before I get my soldering iron so I'm just going to be patient.

I also need to calibrate the speed, from my initial audio tests it sounds like it may be a fraction slow.

So, probably no posts for a few weeks (added complication of my parents-in-law staying in the spare room which is normally my workshop!) but I hope the next post is the triumphant culmination!

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Rich replied on Fri, Feb 22 2013 5:20 PM

Another Steely Eyed Missile Man in the making!

Well done so far, and continued good luck.

Blah blah blah, blah blah ba ran

josh134
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josh134 replied on Tue, Apr 2 2013 3:54 PM

I'm totally intending to post some photos of the machine in action, but realistically know that I won't get around to it for a while.

However, I want it on record that as of Easter Saturday, the record player is working perfectly! I soldered the on/off switch back together, adjusted the speed, gave everything a good clean, adjusted the platter as it was scraping ever so slightly on the deck and hooked it all up for some lovely dinner party entertainment.

My first record / track?

Track: Under the Bridge

Artist: Red Hot Chili Peppers

Album: Blood Sugar Sex Magik

Grateful thanks for the words of encouragement along the way!

Rich
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Rich replied on Tue, Apr 2 2013 8:23 PM

Congratulations, and well done!

And thanks for checking in and reporting, too.  All too often folks will come in, ask a few questions, and then never let us know how they've done!

Blah blah blah, blah blah ba ran

Søren Mexico
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josh134:
Blood Sugar Sex Magik

Good one for the dinner party, congrats to a good job done, enjoy. Ran my 1202 yesterday with my BM 4400, these old decks has their own personality.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

Menahem Yachad
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Very nice job!

I have a modded BG1203 - very nice TT, with one of Axel's Nude Shibata styluses. I am very partial to the sound!

Don't throw those spares away!

Menahem

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ChrisG116 replied on Mon, Mar 10 2014 12:06 PM

Brilliant thread. I just joined this forum to find something just like this... I have a 1203 and a 1200, neither work properly but I am hoping to combine the 2 into one working player. The 1200 looks brand new but doens't turn, the 1203 has taken a few knocks and is falling apart... I'm new to all of this and have no real clue what to do but threads like this area great push in the right direction...

Søren Mexico
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Welcome to the forum Chris, just get on with it, and we are here to help. And dont throw anything away, there is always someone in need of spareparts.

Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.

josh134
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josh134 replied on Mon, Mar 10 2014 6:50 PM

Welcome! Glad you've found it interesting. My deck has been running nicely ever since and all my spares are packed up somewhere, I'll have a look in the next day or two to see if I have anything that could be of use.

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ChrisG116 replied on Mon, Mar 31 2014 9:16 AM

Cheers for the Welcome chaps.

I have a couple of questions reg a couple of decks (1200 and 1203)... would starting a new thread be the done thing or is it ok to post here? It seems a good one hit resource it might be good to add to it?

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Dillen replied on Mon, Mar 31 2014 9:38 AM

ChrisG116:

Cheers for the Welcome chaps.

I have a couple of questions reg a couple of decks (1200 and 1203)... would starting a new thread be the done thing or is it ok to post here? It seems a good one hit resource it might be good to add to it?

The topic of this thread is Beogram 1200 repairs, so go ahead and ask.

Martin

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ChrisG116 replied on Mon, Mar 31 2014 10:07 AM

Great stuff.

Ok, I will aim to get some pics uploaded too but here we go, and I will try not to waffle...

Deck 01, 1203, average condition:

All works fine, except for the pick up and return, if I force the arm round (not too hard) it engages and puts it back neatly but doesn't under normal use, as the needle runs out it skips back to the last 10 seconds of the song, then does the same, infinitely.

 

Deck 02, 1200, very good condition: 

I bought this after giving up on the 1203 and it was sold as "worked when stored". After working on it for hours it was all working apart from, again, the pick up and return mechanism! In this case though there were two very small clip like pieces of metal rattling about in the case- obviously part of said mechanism but I have no idea where they actually go- I'm assuming within the big white wheel somehow... I will get some pics of these...

 

I'm hoping for an easy fix, I have played with the weight on the 1203 and it makes a difference... with more weight on the arm the needle runs further... if I set it to sub 2 it doesn't make it to the end of the record, over 2 and it starts to run out before jumping back...

 

Over to you experts for thoughts and suggestions... I would love to get these turntables working perfectly again as they are works of art.

vikinger
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vikinger replied on Mon, Mar 31 2014 10:27 AM

This may or may not help 

When I first bought my Beogram 1200 (allegedly new) it had the problem of the stylus being snatched- back just before finishing a record and before the stylus was lifted. The Beogram was returned to the dealer for repair, but came back with the same fault.

On lifting the platter you will find a number of shaped sliding brass floating pieces at the centre of the turntable. These determine when the arm should lift and move etc. In my case I found that a corner tip of one of these sliders had been bent over (maybe a factory fault!) causing the arm to be snatched back prematurely. So just take a close look at those sliders and make sure that none are bent and that they can all move freely.

Graham

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Hi Graham,

Thanks for the reply. These sound like the exact bits that have become detached in my 1200! Don't suppose you have any pics of them in place?

 

I played with my 1203 more last night... it's very odd... I put a little more weight on it than it should have (3 as opposed to 2) and it now plays out, skips back about an inch, then lifts and returns! I know its not ideal but am I right in thinking the SP14 was designed to withstand that sort of movement? I heard some story of a sales man dragging the needle back and forth the record to demonstrate, once, in the 70's... (maybe a tall tale).

vikinger
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ChrisG116:

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the reply. These sound like the exact bits that have become detached in my 1200! Don't suppose you have any pics of them in place?

I'll take a look later today and see if it's possible to get any meaningful pictures.

Graham

vikinger
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No pictures I'm afraid.

Got the deck out, lifted the platter, but then found the three screws holding the disk below the platter were either seized or locked with something like loctite and I simply could not move them. I am not going to use force for fear of breaking something.

Does anyone else have pictures of the brass sliders? The manual tends to show all views from below and I can't see a view from the top showing the area in question.

Graham

Menahem Yachad
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Is this the area you mean? If not, try to be a bit more exact, and I'll see what I can do.

Menahem


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Menahem Yachad:

Is this the area you mean? If not, try to be a bit more exact, and I'll see what I can do.

Menahem

Thanks Menahem. That looks like the right area. Whether it answers the original question remains to be seen!

 

Graham

ChrisG116
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Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for taking the time ot get those pics.... sadly it doesn't show anything looking like the parts I mentioned.

I'll try and grab a pic of the pieces myself and see if anyone recognises them.

 

Also, anyone know of someone in London who might be able ot repair my turntables if I dont manage it?

 

Menahem Yachad
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Nick Robbins, also known as Solderon, is recommended. You may have to drive a bit from London.

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ChrisG116 replied on Mon, Apr 7 2014 10:58 PM

I really wish I could find someone from London... I had it repaired once by Clive at Rex Radio but I'm not entirely convinced of the quality of the job he did and he is near impossible to get hold of... 

Still having problems with the return on the 1203... going to open it up again soon and see what I can work out.

 

In the meantime, these are the two small bits that were kicking about in the 1200 which I assume are the vital parts for the lifting mechanism but have no clue as to where they should go?

 

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I have opened my BG1202 and BG1203 - I can't find anything that looks remotely like those parts.

I don't have a BG1200 here, and to be honest - it's been a few years since I had an actual 1200 in here for service - I don't remember any parts which look like those on the 1200's I serviced. I may be mistaken, of course.

The rectangular metal bit on the right looks like the pivoting cam interrupter from later generation BeoGrams.......

Perhaps they don't even belong to this TT.

 

Have you opened up the BG1200 and BG1203, and laid them side by side, to see if they have the same mechanics - perhaps a comparison would help you.

 

Regarding service - there remains only a handful of really COMPETENT vintage B&O technicians around the world. Most of them are well-known right here on these forums. Unless you're really lucky, the odds are that you will NOT find the good tech conveniently located close to you.

So you'll probably have to travel a bit. I have machines sent to me from all over the world. Sometimes the freight is hellishly expensive. But if the customer is OK with that, I'm not going to disappoint him.

In the UK, there are a couple of really good men - maybe not in London - I don't know. The good men I do know, are not in London.  To travel a bit is not a big deal, if your motive is to get the job done absolutely right, the first time, and not pay to have the tech learn on your equipment.

Menahem

 

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I correct my previous post - see the attached picture.

This is of a BG1203 cam wheel - the underside, which is the part you can't see, unless you disassemble it from the chassis.

Those 2 bits of yours are the brass bits which attach to your plastic cam wheel, but if they've been removed, as your's have, it suggests damage to the cam wheel.

They are attached by tiny rivets (do you still have them), and many times the rivet pressure causes cracks in the cam wheel, making it unusable.

So you'll need to remove your plastic cam wheel, and examine the underside.


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ChrisG116 replied on Tue, Apr 8 2014 10:04 AM

Thanks for the reply! 

I suspected they were from the cam wheel although I did inspect and couldn't for the life of me work out how and where they connected to it! Might be a job for someone with more time money and experience...

I feel my 1203 is a couple of simple steps away from working perfectly... it only plays in one speaker (have swapped connections and cartridges so its defo something in the wiring of the TT) and the return drags the needle across the record before lifting it but I suspect hat's due to something not quite sitting right inside.

Getting a bit disheartened as I have spent a fair bit of time and money on these already and not really sure I can afford to invest more.

If anyone is interested in a 1200 for spares or repairs drop me an email... (its in great condition apart from the return mechanism!).

Menahem Yachad
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If the rivets are gone and/or the cam wheel is cracked, your 1200 is pretty much unusable "as designed". That would require a serviceable cam wheel, and unfortunately the 1200 has a different mechanism to, and is not as plentiful as, the 1202, 1203, 2000, 3000, which all share common parts.

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ChrisG116 replied on Tue, Apr 8 2014 10:59 AM

I fear that may be the case!

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Dillen replied on Tue, Apr 8 2014 11:23 AM

This is the part if I'm not mistaken ?

Martin

Menahem Yachad
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See how diplomatic Martin is?

He sits there quietly, and waits until everyone's all depressed about a non-repairable part, and then jumps in like a white knight to the rescue.....Lets have a Party !!!

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ChrisG116 replied on Tue, Apr 8 2014 12:10 PM

Ha, you guys are amazing! So thats the inner wheel? I'm going to look into it all Thursday, and fingers crossed. 

Reg 1203, when the arm gets to the end of the record it feels like its pushing against a spring, gets pushed back across the record, then lifts and returns... if I put less weight on the arm it doesnt even get to the end of the record. I imagine something small is out of place inside- thoughts/suggestions?

 

And thanks again, really appreciate all the replies.

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