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Beogram 4004 speed related "speed issue"

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Piaf
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Piaf posted on Tue, Dec 20 2016 6:48 PM

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I have a Beogram 4004 with a speed related speed issue. This problem came up 3 years ago and I purchased a new belt thinking that was the most like cause. Apparently not. New belt in place and I promptly forgot about this issue.

This 4004 has been my “trouble free” turntable having never once needed an adjustment. (a lot more than I can say about the 4000, 4002, AND 8000)

Playing a standard 33 1/3RPM record is exactly what should be expected.

However when playing a 45RPM LP record, the 4004 slows down mid-play to near stop, playing VERY, VERY slowly. Switching back and forth between 33 1/3 and 45 does little good. Towards the end of the record the 4004 always speeds back up, possibly even playing a bit too fast.

I applied pressure to the record during play to see if the belt slipped, but there was no evidence of that.

Changed the record to a standard 33 1/3 and problem solved…. but (of course) not really.

I am thinking perhaps a bad contact, but I really don’t know, I am guessing blind.

If anyone has experienced anything like this with a 4000 series turntable I’d appreciate a suggestion as to how to address it.

Thanks,

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

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hamacbleu
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Hi,

it's been a long time since I haven't been on this Forum. This problem rings a bell.. my Beogram 4002, type 5513 had the same problem. The culprit  on mine was the speed relay. It's the small plastic and transparent box under the main board, written Siemens on it (if I remember correctly) I think they tend to oxidize with time, making bad contact with the speed that is not used really often (45 rpm..), thus the speed fluctuation. I have desoldered it, opened it and gently rubbed it's connector with a piece of parchment paper soaked into deoxit. Problem solved.

Meanwhile, I bought a replacement from the nice guy who has the Beolover blog. However, I have never installed the replacement since the problem has never reoccured. But I'm conscious it probably will one day or another... 

Hope that help

Guillaume

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sonavor
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It is difficult to really diagnose without seeing it but to me the problem sounds like it could be the motor itself. The play speed (voltage) does come from the Beogram amplifier board though so it could also be electronic. The easiest way to tell is to swap out the platter motor if you have access to another Beogram 400x with the DC motor.  Is your 4002 a DC or AC motor type unit? If you don't have access to a spare I would pull the motor and see if Beolover can look at it. He is also set up to re-infuse the bearings of those type of motors with oil and repair them. So if the motor is the culprit he will be able to fix it. If the motor tests good then you will know the problem is in your board. Are you certain the belt is not involved with the problem. You can swap the belt with your 4002 as they are the same belt type.

sonavor 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Tue, Dec 20 2016 9:10 PM

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Thank you for the knowledgeable response.

I do have a 4002, but either never noticed or if I did, inconveniently forgot if the motor was AC or DC. If mine is an early model it will be DC, otherwise AC like the 4004.

I did replace the belt (from Martin) about 3 years ago. While I am not certain about the belt, it is an unlikely source for this ”issue.” I specifically pressed hard on the record with my hand and it had almost NO effect on the record speed. If the belt was weak, I imagine the platter would have actually stopped.

A bad motor is certainly a possibility however this has been going on for at least 3 years, so with regular use, I imagine a bad motor would have failed by now.

After this morning’s near stop mid-record on 45RPM I have been on a marathon of record playing for the last 4 hours, playing one 33 1/3RPM record after another and the performance is flawless.

What this 4004 won’t do is dependably play a 45RPM record. Worse for remote diagnosis is that it starts at near or about the correct speed, then mid-record drops in RPM/s dramatically, only to “catch its breath” towards the end of the record.

It is the changing speeds on 45RPM’s that throws me coupled with the perfect performance on 33 1/3RPM’s.

Let me ask another question, so let’s say it is the amplifier board that has an issue, could this problem only affect 45RPM’s?

I have no problem in sending out the amplifier board or motor for proper repair, but I have had God-awful luck with shipping Beograms, that I am extremely disinclined to ship the entire Beogram.

Thanks again for the helpful tips. I gotta give this some more thought.

Jeff

P.S. Martin did in fact find those 1600 belts I needed.

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

sonavor
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sonavor replied on Tue, Dec 20 2016 10:37 PM

I would suggest to just ship the motor and/or board if it comes down to those. On the Beogram 4002/4404 (types 5523/5526) those components just unplug. So no need to ship the whole turntable and risk any damage in shipping.

You have the DC and AC motors confused. The original Beogram 4000 and subsequent Beogram 4002 (Types 5501 through 5503) have the AC platter motor.  After that Bang & Olufsen changed up the design and went to the DC motor. So your 4004 has a DC motor for sure and if your 4002 is a type 5513 or higher, then it will also have a DC motor.

Since you have been changing the belt I take it you have been running it with the deck covers off. Can you observe whether anything is obstructing the movement of the platter belt and/or tonearm assembly? Is the belt staying in place and in the middle of the motor drive shaft?

I wasn't clear from your first posting about 33 1/3 being perfect. I understood that 45 RPM had problems but switching to 33 1/3 also wouldn't work right (occasionally). If the failure is always on 45 and never on 33 1/3 then I would suspect the electronics and not the motor. The Beogram changes speeds electronically and that circuit is on the main board so, yes, it can be a board issue.

sonavor

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Wed, Dec 21 2016 3:43 AM

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Before I get into this, I want to thank you sincerely for all your time AND expert advice.

 I am tremendously embarrassed that I managed to get the AC and DC motors backwards, as I really should know better having a Beogram 4000. To err is human but this is FAR from my first mistake.

The belt was changed three years ago, so no; I am not running the turntable with the cover off.

Today I played the Beogram 4004 essentially nonstop for 4 ½ hours (I was upset by this development and had the time….) and it played every record at 33 1/3 perfectly, no exceptions.

I am no expert (far from it) on these Beograms, but after that long duration without problems I assume it is a flaw in the main board that affects the 45RPM play. The mechanicals I can deal with, but electronics mystify me completely.

Before I pull out the board I will spend a bit more time on this 4004. For reasons of no interest to this forum I am actually forced to use this 4004, so it will get all my attention in the immediate future.

Again thanks for pointing out the two possible problems. Yes - thumbs up

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

sonavor
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Sure, no need for any embarrassment. The internals aren't something an owner should have to deal with (at least not very often). The problem does seem to point towards the board as the most likely suspect. As I said, the board can easily be removed and sent to someone for repair so you don't have to worry about shipping the whole turntable. Once the board is repaired you will be able to adjust the trimmers to dial in the precise speed.

sonavor

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:51 AM

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This is an excellent option.

This has been an unfortunate and totally unexpected week of B&O failures. Like some terrible Gypsy curse. Three to be exact, and the 4004 misbehaved at a very inconvenient moment to make problem number 4.

Once I get the “other” issues taken care of, I will want to have this board repaired.

You really have been an amazing help.

Thank you. Smile

Jeff

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Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Dec 22 2016 12:47 AM

OK, it pretty much official, it is the board.

I checked the belt and it looks virtually new.

I played this 4004 for 4 hours yesterday and 5 hours today without a single hiccup. If it were the motor I believe a fault would have shown up with this much "work."

So am I satisfied with 33 1/3RPM only play? No, but priorities dictate that I have 3 other repairs done first. As 99% of my records are 33 1/3RPM's and with the 4004 performing so well, I don't feel pressed to have this repair performed immediately.

Thank you for directing me to this problem.

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

millicurie999
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Resurrecting an old thread.

Did you ever manage to get the speed problem fixed? My 4004 (#5523) is showing exactly the same behaviour, albeit not as severe as yours. My 45 rpm fluctuates between 42-46 as measured with a tachometer. 33 rpm is solid.  BTW, I already switched out the r15, r16 with those new trimpots but that didn't help.

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Wed, Jun 28 2017 12:43 AM

I wish I could be of help, but not at this time.

My problem disappeared completely about 3 weeks ago. Whatever is wrong is still wrong.

I had planned to send the board off to my shop near Atlanta, GA, but with with no malfunction, that seems rather pointless.

When the problem reoccurs I will post an update, but for now, there is nothing to report.

That said if you make progress with your 4004, I surely would like to hear about it. The problem (I believe) is with the motherboard.

One question, do you use your 4004 with the remote control? I am not sure why, but this feature really "turns my crank." Big Smile

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

hamacbleu
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Verified by millicurie999

Hi,

it's been a long time since I haven't been on this Forum. This problem rings a bell.. my Beogram 4002, type 5513 had the same problem. The culprit  on mine was the speed relay. It's the small plastic and transparent box under the main board, written Siemens on it (if I remember correctly) I think they tend to oxidize with time, making bad contact with the speed that is not used really often (45 rpm..), thus the speed fluctuation. I have desoldered it, opened it and gently rubbed it's connector with a piece of parchment paper soaked into deoxit. Problem solved.

Meanwhile, I bought a replacement from the nice guy who has the Beolover blog. However, I have never installed the replacement since the problem has never reoccured. But I'm conscious it probably will one day or another... 

Hope that help

Guillaume

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Jun 29 2017 4:18 AM

Makes sense.

We all normally use the 33 1/3 RPM, but I have several 45 RPM LP's.

With repeated use, the problem "went away." But now I know what to do about it if/when it reoccurs.

Thank you kindly!

Jeff

P.S. I just love my remote controlled 4004! Big Smile

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

millicurie999
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Thanks for taking the time to respond. Good that the problem solved itself Big Smile The reply from @hamacbleu suggests it could be the speed relay. I will certainly give that a shot (i.e., cleaning it).  Previously I have the 4002 that exhibits speed stability issue for both the 33 and 45, which was fixed by replacing the trimmer pot. Not this time with the 4004. Will report back as soon as I get a chance to play with it.

I don't have the full set up to use the remote. Have been toying with the idea of getting a 2400-2 just to try that out, but have not pulled the trigger yet.

Piaf
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Piaf replied on Thu, Jun 29 2017 7:03 AM

Responding? My pleasure entirely. Big Smile

We are all here to help each other, and as it is,  I learned a good deal from this conversation.Mahalo.

Beograms are pretty much "my life" and this issue could come up with most of them. You might have noticed I have a 4000, 4002, 4004, 8000, 8002, and last but not really least, 1602.

I can not encourage you enough to acquire a nice Beomaster 2400.2 to experience the absolute JOY Lets have a Party !!! of the remote control function. OMG

Sadly, in general, BUT good for you, multiple 2400.2's come up for sale on eBay virtually every day. [I say they should be more appreciated.]

I have two Beomaster 2400.2's; one my virtually flawless original, and the second, a tattered but functional gift from a great friend. Both provide glorious music on a near daily basis and I just couldn't part with either.

I hope you take the plunge and buy a Beomaster 2400.2 but know this, your Beogram 4004 will need the additional 2 pins to function. If your 4004 has a 5-pin connection, you will need the screw-in 2 additional pins.

If you require the additional pins, I may well have a source.

Jeff

Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000. Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century,  S-45, S-75, S-75, M-75, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase,  B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder

 

millicurie999
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I am happy to report back that cleaning the speed relay box solved the 45rpm stability issue.  I used a piece of paper with detox, and then pro gold to clean the contacts. Very happy now Big Smile Thanks again everyone for your advice.

@Piaf My 4004 does have 7 pins, so I am all set if/when I decide to take the 2400.2 plunge.  What speakers do you use?  I am interested in trying the Beolab but I know they won't work with the 2400 (at least not without some mods).  

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