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Misleading sales

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Chris Townsend
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Dear all

Back in May this year I spotted a pair of Beolab 5s in what was my local store, and based upon the description that we were told and shown, we bought them for £12,500(the going rate for ex demo).

We were told they were ex demo, and basically brand new but were to be now sold to make make way for the Beokab 50s. We were even shown a box with their supposed arrival date from Struer.

Having visited our new local store, and looking to upgrade our system to fit our new house, we looked to part ex all our current gear. It was during this that our new local dealer discovered the true age of the “ex demo” speakers. 

They are in fact 2011 models, and are possibly worth half of what we paid. We voiced our concern to our dealers manager who denied everything, and insisted we had good deal in that they were heavily discounted from the normal £16,500! He denied saying they were new but confirmed he did describe them as “ex demo”(which we all know is less than 6 months old) He also confirmed he showed us the dates on the boxes, which confirmed our belief they were brand new, ex demo models ie less than six months old.

Given that the dealer doesn’t want to know, what would your course of action be?

 

 

 

 


Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

Chris Townsend
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The above image is what we were shown on the speaker packaging, to mislead us into thinking they were nearly new ex demo.

Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Fri, Nov 10 2017 7:48 PM

If what you say is true then this sounds like mis-selling/fraud - you certainly wouldn't be allowed to do it with a car!

There's no way they didn't know the age of these speakers as they've either owned them since new or else bought them in part-ex, in which case they would have been very careful in checking their age in order to set a purchase price. In that case they have knowing sold them to you at well over the "going price" and the "proof" that they were mis-sold is simply that no one would have knowingly paid that price for 6 year old models.

Without spending money you can speak to Citizens advice who will pass it on the Trading Standards if appropriate.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/

or you can have your Solicitor write to them.

If you fancy a little retribution you can tell your story to the local press, with pictures outside the storefront etc. (this of course will damage any chance of a reasonable settlement)!Big Smile

 

Ban boring signatures!

pauljrog
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pauljrog replied on Fri, Nov 10 2017 8:57 PM

Yeah, definitely mis-selling, 2011 beolab 5's are not worth £12,500.

Last month I purchased a pair of 2011 Ex Demo Beolab 5's from my local B&O store with free delivery, all leads and 3 year warranty for £8250.

Regarding your purchase i'm amazed that during the sales process the sales assistant didn't realise they are 6 years old, surely the serial numbers on the invoice should of rang alarm bells.

I would goto the store, have a conversation with the manager, if no joy then see a solicitor and send the manager a letter and B&O head office.

 

Chris Townsend
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This is what I thought I was getting, and it’s relevant price.....

https://www.bomerchantcity.co.uk/product/beolab-5-ex-display/

I got all that including the packaging, minus one critical detail. There’s no way they didn’t know, and didn’t seem surprised by my email(none of my calls or messages were returned)

 

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moxxey
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moxxey replied on Fri, Nov 10 2017 10:51 PM

pauljrog:

Regarding your purchase i'm amazed that during the sales process the sales assistant didn't realise they are 6 years old, surely the serial numbers on the invoice should of rang alarm bells.

Correct. Every dealer understands serial codes and the first two digits. But, the average customer won't and if they look new, and they have an RRP of over £16K, then it's quite easy for a dealer to pass them off as "seriously discounted" and most customers would walk away happy.

The sad thing is, if you tried selling on a 2011 pair to a dealer, you'd be lucky if they offered you £5K.

CB
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CB replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 11:04 AM

Hi Chris

I sympathize sincerely with your concern...

Unfortunately, I'm afraid there's not a lot to do if they refuse to listen to reason Super Angry

When I bought mine in 2015, they first said they were from 2012. Then they said they were from 2007 (!) but that all the electronic was new, and that way, there were "better than a pair from 2012"...

When I asked them to write me a paper attesting that, they said only the chassis were changed by new ones.

When I asked for repair bills, they acknowledged that the chassis were refurbished (i.e. old chassis repaired and tested by B&O !)

Small-time crook is a world-wide specie...

Edit

To complete the job, when they installed the BL5s in my room, they strongly reproached me I didn't warned them the needed lenght of the PL cables was more than 5m (not standard length). Note that they didn't asked neither...

And by the way, B&O Care didn't answered me when I asked for details about my BL5s (I wrote them the story and gave the serial numbers).

Chris Townsend
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Good to know I'm not alone, but this is disgusting behaviour that wouldn't be accepted in any other form of business. 

Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

vikinger
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vikinger replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 12:24 PM

Chris,

Just looking at Companies House and at B&O dealerships around the North East, there are some fairly complex ownership chains. Have you done a search of the ownership details of the particular branch concerned and written to the ultimate controlling person as well as B&O HQ?

Graham

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 7:47 PM

You could always white wash his storefront windows every Sunday with "This shop robbed me of £4000"!Big Smile

Ban boring signatures!

Chris Townsend
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I’ve known this store and the staff for over 12 years. It’s not just about the money, these were our wedding anniversary present.

My wife will never have the brand in our house ever again. It’s all got to go.

Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 8:20 PM

Chris Townsend:

I’ve known this store and the staff for over 12 years. It’s not just about the money, these were our wedding anniversary present.

My wife will never have the brand in our house ever again. It’s all got to go.

Seriously, try the Trading Standards people, if they take it on then contact from them to the store is usually enough.

Ban boring signatures!

pauljrog
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pauljrog replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 9:17 PM

Chris Townsend:

I’ve known this store and the staff for over 12 years. It’s not just about the money, these were our wedding anniversary present.

My wife will never have the brand in our house ever again. It’s all got to go.

Really sorry to hear this, but understandable.

I don't understand why a B&O store would deceive you out of around £4000 of cash. Very worrying, I'm sure you are not the only customer they have deceived, if the store isn't making any money then best to close the store than to resort to these tactics.

 

Chris Townsend
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Considering the amount of emails I’ve received detailing similar treatment that I’ve had, this is not an isolated event unfortunately.

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Puncher
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Puncher replied on Sat, Nov 11 2017 9:37 PM

Chris Townsend:

Considering the amount of emails I’ve received detailing similar treatment that I’ve had, this is not an isolated event unfortunately.

I've said it before, don't trust salesmen, they're forced to lie for a living.

For anyone new reading this, ask/check the serial numbers on any exdemo/used items to check they they are what is claimed.

Ban boring signatures!

Sal
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Sal replied on Sun, Nov 12 2017 12:53 AM

Chris Townsend:
My wife will never have the brand in our house ever again. It’s all got to go.

I'm appalled and so sorry this has happened to you. Hopefully someone at B&O HQ reads this and makes right by you - regardless of the ownership structure of the store. It took much less for me to make the decision to part ways with the Brand a decade ago.

h1npw
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h1npw replied on Sun, Nov 12 2017 9:15 AM

Hi Chris

From personal experience I wouldn't bother with either CA or TS. Take them to the small claims court. I think your case is so straightforward you don't need to employ a solicitor. I also think you would have a very good chance of getting the £4K back they defrauded you of.

if you decide to go down this route do keep us posted with how you get on.

How come you're leaving beautiful Corbridge? New job?

Cheer

Nigel

vikinger
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vikinger replied on Sun, Nov 12 2017 9:27 AM

A business with honest descriptions and prices like Lifestyle cannot keep trading on a viable basis, but a main dealer cheats on dates so that he can overcharge, presumably to help keep his business afloat?

What does this say about the state of the B&O retail and second life markets?

Graham

PS. I agree with Nigel. Small Claims Court. 

Chris Townsend
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Thanks all. Again from the emails I've had, I'm not alone on this. 

Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

moxxey
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moxxey replied on Sun, Nov 12 2017 10:38 AM

Puncher:

Chris Townsend:

Considering the amount of emails I’ve received detailing similar treatment that I’ve had, this is not an isolated event unfortunately.

I've said it before, don't trust salesmen, they're forced to lie for a living.

The worrying thing is, they could have been bought in (for around £5-6K), then sold as “new” with newer boxing and the dealer making a nice £6K profit.

How would the average consumer know the difference between a 2017 and 2011 BL5 if they both look mint?

folkdeejay
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moxxey:

Puncher:

Chris Townsend:

Considering the amount of emails I’ve received detailing similar treatment that I’ve had, this is not an isolated event unfortunately.

I've said it before, don't trust salesmen, they're forced to lie for a living.

The worrying thing is, they could have been bought in (for around £5-6K), then sold as “new” with newer boxing and the dealer making a nice £6K profit.

How would the average consumer know the difference between a 2017 and 2011 BL5 if they both look mint?

Indeed.

 

I am 10 years out of retail (as a B&O franchisee)  and back in the day I did happen across similar horror stories.   If it is any comfort at all, this will have been a local decision, and in no way condoned/encouraged by the rest of the distribution.

The waters are muddied by the item coming with (if that link is correct) a full warranty - because I can't see B&O honouring that via the usual channels (all serial number based reclaims) , so it would be 'underwritten' by the dealer. 

If they fault in ,say 18 months, and the dealer ignores you (or isn't there anymore)  or you have moved away and use another B&O store - you could be high & dry - without a DK honoured warranty, no other dealer will stand the cost of another business clearance stock repair.  

That said, we did come across a few situations where one or two "characters" running shops around the UK did similar things  ( the service counters on TV's could reveal some amazing stats for 'nearly new' products...  and all dealers can see shipping dates/warranty info on screen in an instant)  and B&O UK were helpful in resolving things...   but its a decade on, and times may have changed.

Personally, I would write a very clear, unambiguous letter requesting refund - down to the level you see reasonable. That figure would, for me,  be determined by initially getting hold of a clearly stated written assurance (endorsed by Struer / B&O UK)  that warranty stands.   If it doesn't, the value will be ... interesting !! 

If that doesn't pan out, you could probably persue a refund via you card issuer ( assuming you paid via a card) on the basis you didn't get the items agreed at the time of the sale - you have a paperwork trail and enough info to prove this.

More basic but perhaps easier to control - you could always invoice the store for the amount you feel you were overcharged by -  and then chase the invoice legally via a court.   Most retailers will not want to be hauled n front of a court for non payment.

 

Sorry to hear all that - it is one of those things that made retail feel a bit 'grubby' at times...   I imagine bankers feel that same, all day, every day.

 

 

 

 

Chris Townsend
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Thanks for that.

Whats really disappointing is that the sale to us was worded around a lie.

”look, just in from Struer this January” They did come from Struer, but are second hand models passed off as New.

Using the same label and then quoting “only in 6 months ago, ex demo” Correct, but via 3 other homes!

Ive been dealing with some pretty miserable stuff recently, and now have 4 weeks until I restart work. I’ve got time on my hands, and am in no mood to be British about the whole thing. If I can get a crime number raised against the salesman for fraud by the police, I shall. Beyond being reasonable now.

Beovision 7-55 Mk2, Avant RF 28, Beolab 5,  Beolit 15,  Beoplay A1/A2, Beocom 2, Beotime, H3 ANC/H8/H6/H2, Form 2, Beoplay A3, Beovision 5-42 connected to a DVD1

9 LEE
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9 LEE replied on Mon, Nov 13 2017 4:39 PM

I've nothing to add here apart from yes, at least one person should have clocked the serial number and raised the alarm at the dealership if they were being sold as 'almost new'. 

Maybe the store owner wasn't aware, maybe the salesman didn't know his serial numbers, and maybe this is a genuine mistake.  However, it's cost you money - and you've paid good money for something you haven't received. It's that simple. To sell something as nearly new you need to check your facts. A simple login to the ROS system and an entry of the serial number would have given the date of sale to dealer, plus the warranty start date - which would have given the age.

I was always super-careful when describing age and condition.  Look where it got me though...

Lee

 

Jeff
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Jeff replied on Mon, Nov 13 2017 4:57 PM

Sadly Lee not everyone out there has your ethics and competence. I firmly believe this eventually comes back to bite people, but it sometimes can take longer than you'd like for Karma to take effect.

Jeff

Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!

Chris Townsend
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The emails I got back weren’t full of surprise or alarm, just you got a discount and I never mentioned January 2017(see pic) and goodbye.

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h1npw
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h1npw replied on Mon, Nov 13 2017 6:54 PM

What ever you do, do it quickly because if they're resorting to this kind of skullduggery, they may soon be joining the ever growing list of ex dealers!! And if you've got a bit of time on your hands, then filling in the small claim court forms should not be to onerous.

Cheers

Nigel

pauljrog
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pauljrog replied on Mon, Nov 13 2017 8:52 PM

Just want to ask, do the serial numbers start with a 22? if so they could be manufactured in 2010.

Mine are the same, serial number 22, what I've found on the web is serial no 22 is both 2010 & 2011 !!

 

Chris Townsend
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22412395 and 22621095

Considering all that’s recently gone on in our life, this was the last place I thought I’d be screwed.

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seethroughyou
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Can you say who the dealer is or where they’re located?
pauljrog
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pauljrog replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 7:49 AM

Chris Townsend:

22412395 and 22621095

Considering all that’s recently gone on in our life, this was the last place I thought I’d be screwed.

The serial numbers are not consecutive? Is this normal? (my lab5's have consecutive numbers) Plus you say the store received them from Struer earlier this year? This would suggest to me they could be customer faulty/returned items, repaired and sent to a dealer for resale?

This could be a good thing? maybe they have all new internals?

Regardless of this you were still mis-sold. I would try to get all the info regarding their history, this will strengthen your case.

Chris Townsend
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Thanks very much, very generous of you.

I was marketed ex demo speakers, not revamped 7 year olds. Can you imagine if a garage put new number plates on a car and sold you a 100,000 miler when you were shown dodgy packaging in the belief it’s only got 5,000 demo miles.

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9 LEE
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9 LEE replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 8:25 AM

Not even sure if I want to tell you this, but they appear to be an odd pair. Crying

I'll PM you the details.

Lee

PS : They are both from 2011 though (albeit 4 months apart), and bear in mind a dealer could argue they are sold singularly.

badgersurf
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I am really sorry to hear about all these troubles, it is a shame that some dealers think thy can get away with this poor treatment of customers.

Take to social media, and post about your troubles on every comment / update that B&O make on there facebook, twitter and instagram pages. Hopefully then this negative press will get someone to take notice, name and shame the dealer.

 

badgersurf
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If you brought on credit card or even paid a bit they might be able to help as they are liable for the sales as well
Chris Townsend
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That’s a good idea.

No problem Lee, I appreciate your help and it all adds to the pot! I now get the impression that they were just seconds knocking about in Struer, and I was an easy trusting target to be conned. And I don’t use that word lightly.

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9 LEE
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9 LEE replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 12:20 PM

I don't think they'll have been "seconds" knocking around in Struer if I'm honest. 

They could have been B&O long-term demo products (which are usually completely refurbed as necessary before sale), they could have been taken in part exchange, or they could have been sold on behalf of a customer. Only the dealer who sold you them will know that.

I just don't get the space between the serial numbers though. That's quite a gap, and tells me (in my humble experience) they weren't ordered as a pair.

Lee

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Hiort replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 12:59 PM
9 LEE:

I don't think they'll have been "seconds" knocking around in Struer if I'm honest.

They could have been B&O long-term demo products (which are usually completely refurbed as necessary before sale), they could have been taken in part exchange, or they could have been sold on behalf of a customer. Only the dealer who sold you them will know that.

I just don't get the space between the serial numbers though. That's quite a gap, and tells me (in my humble experience) they weren't ordered as a pair.

Lee

Interesting.

Just being curious here:

What happens if a customer have a faulty BL5 that gets replaced under warranty? That will give a “gap” in the serial numbers, right?

 

folkdeejay
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9 LEE:

I don't think they'll have been "seconds" knocking around in Struer if I'm honest. 

They could have been B&O long-term demo products (which are usually completely refurbed as necessary before sale), they could have been taken in part exchange, or they could have been sold on behalf of a customer. Only the dealer who sold you them will know that.

I just don't get the space between the serial numbers though. That's quite a gap, and tells me (in my humble experience) they weren't ordered as a pair.

Lee

 

From the late 90's through to 2010 (and I assume beyond, but i don't know as i left) ,  B&O would sell 'Caged Stock' to dealers.   What you might call graded, or B stock - these may be ex demo, DOA and returned, or transit damaged and repaired, and therefore subject to various discounts ( up to 50% or more off the trade cost).

So these speakers could, perhaps, be caged stock the dealer bought to use on display ( I did this a fair bit, particularly with the big ticket items as you are going to get them out of the box - value drops maybe 20% right then - and use them anyway) and it may be that they bought them from Struer when they said they did... 

BUT you should still have been told.  Even with all new drivers and maybe updated electronics - it is still, essentially, a refurbished pair and not just ex display.

If this is the case, you will at least have the peace of mind of a Struer warranty applying.   

What you paid is another issue.  

 

olvisab
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olvisab replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 5:00 PM

A friend of mine have bought a pair of beolab 5 to Lee and as honest as Lee is this pair is not as "clear" as it should be.

I am not here to blame Lee, but even a serious and honest dealer can sell a pair with unclear history.

The price was good that's not the same issue but the history/characteristics is not 100% clear.

 

 

 

 

beolab 5, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 3500, IWS 2000, beovision 7 55 mk2,  beotime, beogram 7000 white mmc2, beosound ouverture, beosound essence and the collection continues...

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moxxey replied on Tue, Nov 14 2017 5:15 PM

9 LEE:

I just don't get the space between the serial numbers though. That's quite a gap, and tells me (in my humble experience) they weren't ordered as a pair.

It is confusing, but would it really matter? If BL5s can be sold individually but can be connected to perform as a pair, would having two different serials affect the performance for an end user?

Chris - I don't think you'd be able to open a report for fraud as it would be extremely unlikely the police would get involved with a retail matter. At the very minimum, they'd simply tell you to contact your card company.

Indeed, confused why you don't? When I had an issue with a B&O store (it went bust and didn't deliver the TV!), I simply called my card company, explained, they froze the transaction and looked in to the transaction. Within a few days they reversed it and I received the full funds.

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